[3.5] Immortality

[Gorbash]

No, this is not another 'how to become immortal' thread, I'm just curious about who's actually immortal in D&D. Flipping through Monster Manual (subtype characteristics, to be precise), I didn't run into anything that specifically states that they don't age. Even for obvious ones, such as Lich, it doesn't state that they don't die of old age! Yes, they don't suffer from loss of the ability scores and they don't eat, drink or sleep, but shouldn't there be a line that says that they can't die of old age?

Same goes for elementals. How can an Air Elemental die? Or Earth or any of them? Angels?

[drengnikrafe]

I'm just guessing here, but I would say imortality is not directly addressed in the Monster's Manual because it is not a common problem. Very infrequantly is the time in which a DM holds a campaign that spans 3 generations, having the same BBEG for the whole thing. At that point, it becomes the DM's discression. After all, it's YOUR world (or the DM's world, if you're not the DM), and thus it's YOUR rules. Forcing something to be immortal, or not, could mess up some DM's intricate plans involving aging.

[Gorbash]

Well, given the fact that most of the campaigns are in Greyhawk or Faerun, I can't really say it's my world and frankly I've never encountered a recurring villain during 3 generations (unless he's an elf or some other long-lived race). I'm just curious how is it possible that such an important issue hasn't been resolved anywhere.

For example, I have a player who wants to become a saint. So, we talked a bit for about that and since he's currently 70 years old (with his maximum age at 75), we got to the part where I said: Well, even if you do become a saint, you'll be one for a finite number of years and he said that saints are immortal. So, when we looked it up it didn't say anywhere. The only part hinting at that is that they're "earthly celestials". But it doesn't say that celestials are immortal (although they should be, using common sense).

I mean, same goes for my wizard and his aspiring plan to gain elemental subtype once he gets epic spellcasting. It doesn't say whether elementals are immortal.

[Collin152]

No, this is not another 'how to become immortal' thread, I'm just curious about who's actually immortal in D&D. Flipping through Monster Manual (subtype characteristics, to be precise), I didn't run into anything that specifically states that they don't age. Even for obvious ones, such as Lich, it doesn't state that they don't die of old age! Yes, they don't suffer from loss of the ability scores and they don't eat, drink or sleep, but shouldn't there be a line that says that they can't die of old age?

Same goes for elementals. How can an Air Elemental die? Or Earth or any of them? Angels?

I thought the Undead type as a rule does not age, as with Contruct, Elementals, Outsiders, and maybe others.

[NEO|Phyte]

Off the top of my head, Elans, Warforged, and Deities don't have to worry about old age claiming them. Other than that, no clue, aside from stuff like undead, since the odds of something that isn't even alive dropping dead from old age is a touch slim.

[Gorbash]

I thought the Undead type as a rule does not age

One would think so, yet there is not a rule that specifically says so.

Other than that, no clue, aside from stuff like undead, since the odds of something that isn't even alive dropping dead from old age is a touch slim.

Not from old age, but from rotting, for example...

[drengnikrafe]

I mean, same goes for my wizard and his aspiring plan to gain elemental subtype once he gets epic spellcasting. It doesn't say whether elementals are immortal.

This is the part where you, as the DM, decide. If you want to let him be immortal, let him be immortal. If it would negatively impact your game in ways that couldn't be fixed, then don't. You're the master of the world, so treat it how you want.

[Gorbash]

Nah, it makes no difference to me. Campaign would only last for 2-3 years. I just like to play by RAW (within borders of common sense), so if there's a rule for it, I'd like to know which creatures are immortal and which aren't.

[drengnikrafe]

I apologize in advance, because the following statement is not only stupid, but a little bit mean. Forgive me.

Technically, there is no RAW rules for what happens when you "die" to prevent a little more action. If just says you die. It doesn't say you can no longer fight, it doesn't say he can no longer move, or speak, or anything else. So you've reached -10 HP... so what? Now your title changes from "warrior of space-time" to "dead". Doesn't stop you.... Think about it. Vampires have no souls (I think), and they keep living. Just because your soul leaves your body and you can't get healed, but nothing says you can't move around and fight... Sure, the effects of death are sheer common sense, but... it's still technically a house rule. Even if it is a house rule at least 99% of DMs use. You have to live with a few house rules here and there, so why not a couple more to make sure things remain okay?

[Zeta Kai]

Nah, it makes no difference to me. Campaign would only last for 2-3 years. I just like to play by RAW (within borders of common sense), so if there's a rule for it, I'd like to know which creatures are immortal and which aren't.

Well, I think it's been said: it's not in the rules. I have to side with the other posters & advise you to just make it up on your own.

Perhaps we should all get together & hash it out. We could hold a vote for each creature/type/subtype?

[Jack_Simth]

Nah, it makes no difference to me. Campaign would only last for 2-3 years. I just like to play by RAW (within borders of common sense), so if there's a rule for it, I'd like to know which creatures are immortal and which aren't.

Beyond the races with actual aging tables (mostly just the humanoids and dragons, but Elans and a handful of others get in on aging tables, too), the books simply don't say.

Not that it generally matters. Most campaigns are short enough that aging simply won't come up.

[Gorbash]

That would be fine by me, that was sort of initial point to this topic. I mean, it seems clear that Elementals, Archons, Angels, Devils, Demons, Undead and such are immortal, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on Saints, since they actually initiated this trail of thought.

Not that it generally matters. Most campaigns are short enough that aging simply won't come up.

Yeah, but I just want to be able to say at the end of the Shackled City AP, in which my wizard plays, once he becomes an elemental: And he lived happily ever after. So, it's purely for RP reasons.

[Innis Cabal]

Honestly never thought that it needed to be said that certain things don't age...

[CASTLEMIKE]

That would be fine by me, that was sort of initial point to this topic. I mean, it seems clear that Elementals, Archons, Angels, Devils, Demons, Undead and such are immortal, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on Saints, since they actually initiated this trail of thought.

One option is when he reaches his maximum age he Dies of Old Age but he he becomes more powerful ascending and becoming a True Saint instead of a Mortal Living Saint an Immortal Einherjer Saint DRO as per Dieties and Demigods with no adverse effects for being venerable (+6 to St, Dex and Con) while retaining the benefits of lifetime of experience plus some other cool powers and stuff.

Don't forget Aaisimar and Tieflings are Outsiders who die of old age.

[Gorbash]

What page is that in Deities and Demigods, I can't seem to find them?

[CASTLEMIKE]

What page is that in Deities and Demigods, I can't seem to find them?

Norse Pantheon Einherjer by the Valkyries for the Dwarves, Elves and Humans. 20 HD minimum was dropped to 10 HD.

I added in the restoration to prime of life with the no negative aging effects it would seem kind of sad to have bunches of venerable dottering Immortals.

[Gorbash]

Well, like I said, I try to keep it by the RAW, and since we're playing in Greyhawk, I can't really use Odin's version of saints on a Pelor's cleric...

[monty]

Well, like I said, I try to keep it by the RAW, and since we're playing in Greyhawk, I can't really use Odin's version of saints on a Pelor's cleric...

Refluff it, then. Make something up.

[Collin152]

Refluff it, then. Make something up.

It seems he doesn't do that.
That's why he seems to need it written in the books that Undead don't age.

[Gorbash]

Actually, I just asked for opinion whether Saints age or no.

[Chronos]

If you want to make it dramatic, then say that he doesn't actually die, but his time on the mortal plane is still limited. When he reaches his maximum age, instead of just having a heart attack or an aneurysm or something, a chariot of light comes and takes him bodily away to the celestial realms.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Actually, I just asked for opinion whether Saints age or no.

Definitely age and die. Makes a lot more sense to me that the god would want the saint to eventually die and come to the afterlife. Also, a little cynically, if saints were immortal, they'd inevitably fail and that'd ruin the whole thing - a failed saint isn't much of an inspiration, and I should think the example set by a saint's life is much more important than the saint him- or herself.

Living saints are odd enough as is, but I guess them's the breaks. I'd actually still balance that by requiring most people to die to become saints, and maybe one in a hundred saints - who are already one in a milion or so - would be a living saint. Of course this depends on the setting - living saints as a rule could fit well into many worlds.

Edit:

If you want to make it dramatic, then say that he doesn't actually die, but his time on the mortal plane is still limited. When he reaches his maximum age, instead of just having a heart attack or an aneurysm or something, a chariot of light comes and takes him bodily away to the celestial realms.

This x10

No matter what a saint dies of, they should ascend to heaven.

[Tallis]

I see no reason why saints wouldn't die.

As far as I know in RL a person can't be declared a saint until after they die. Presumably saints in D&D would be based on saints in the Catholic church who are clearly not immortal (at least not in a physical sense). Obviously changes have been made, but if a change isn't specified I wouldn't assume it's there.

[BobVosh]

I apologize in advance, because the following statement is not only stupid, but a little bit mean. Forgive me.

Technically, there is no RAW rules for what happens when you "die" to prevent a little more action. If just says you die. It doesn't say you can no longer fight, it doesn't say he can no longer move, or speak, or anything else. So you've reached -10 HP... so what? Now your title changes from "warrior of space-time" to "dead". Doesn't stop you.... Think about it. Vampires have no souls (I think), and they keep living. Just because your soul leaves your body and you can't get healed, but nothing says you can't move around and fight... Sure, the effects of death are sheer common sense, but... it's still technically a house rule. Even if it is a house rule at least 99% of DMs use. You have to live with a few house rules here and there, so why not a couple more to make sure things remain okay?

Bah, beat me to it.

I see no reason why saints wouldn't die.

As far as I know in RL a person can't be declared a saint until after they die. Presumably saints in D&D would be based on saints in the Catholic church who are clearly not immortal (at least not in a physical sense). Obviously changes have been made, but if a change isn't specified I wouldn't assume it's there.

Except for living saints. Usually there is only one of those, and they call him Pope.

So if undead age in that world, does casting gentle repose variant prevent undead aging? (An undead that is immortal but keeps age would probably take one level of wizard and make his own variant of it, just so he isn't an intelligent skull that can't do anything but wonder what will happen when the skull ages out of existence.)

[Doresain]

undead are not immortal...the prerequisite for immortality is living forever, and im pretty sure in order to become undead you need to die at some point

[drengnikrafe]

undead are not immortal...the prerequisite for immortality is living forever, and im pretty sure in order to become undead you need to die at some point

This is true, but we are using a looser definition of "immortal"... I think. The way I'm interpreting the use of the word "immortal" for the purposes that this fellow has asked is "in such a mannor that their function on this earth would never be rendered null, such as that they shall retain their abilities to function as per normalcy for the remainder of time"... or something along those lines. Undead may have died, but they remain there, functioning, breathing, living (okay, not living), existing beings for the rest of time with gentle repose, so long as they are not slain. That is what we're after. I applaud that you found that contradiction, though.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Well, like I said, I try to keep it by the RAW, and since we're playing in Greyhawk, I can't really use Odin's version of saints on a Pelor's cleric...

Good then it will definitely work in Greyhawk which has a long history of
Rank 0 Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/div...wers.htm#rank0

[RagnaroksChosen]

i believe if you look at the back of the MM in the subtype section it talks about eating breathing sleeping and aging..


don't have books with me atm.

[Tsotha-lanti]

i believe if you look at the back of the MM in the subtype section it talks about eating breathing sleeping and aging..

Eating, breathing, and sleeping, sure. Aging, nope.

[Gorbash]

Forget the undead. I didn't seriously mean that they can die of old age, I just said that if they were mortal they would crumble to dust once their expiry date is up, not grow old and such.

Good then it will definitely work in Greyhawk which has a long history of
Rank 0 Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

But I'm not trying to give Saints (as detailed in BoED) immortality, I just wondered if they are, in fact, mortal, and for that reason asked all of you. Giving one player Divine Rank 0 is not really fair to other players...