Large size whip reach

[koeldflare]

Hey guys, long time reader first time poster. I'm interested in making a character who specializes in using whips for delivering touch spells at a slight range, by using the duskblade class feature. I was just wondering if increasing the size of my whip from medium to large would increase the reach on it.

I realize that in the PHB when it discusses reach weapons it mentions that a Large size creature wielding a Large reach weapon the reach doubles, but wondering if it's possible without increasing my personal size? If so would the whip reach double, or increase by a static amount? What would the final reach be?

If not is there any spells on the Wizard list or any Psion powers that increase reach?

All books available, but no mags (like Dragon or Dungeon).

Edit: Actually whip-dagger is a lot more appealing now. But same question still applies.

Double Edit: Ok, so I got the reach part down, now for another quick question. How long does a spell last in a weapon after a Duskblade cast it into it? Does it last until discharged or does it have a time limit? On the same note can a weapon have both the Spell Storing property and Duskblade weapon spell type property, and can they both be activated at the same time?

[Townopolis]

I'm pretty sure the answer is "no."

Both the weapon and the wielder must be large to get any benefit to reach, at which point reach doubles.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Weapon size has no effect on weapon reach. A Large Whip wielded by a Small creature has the reach of a Small Whip, and a Small Whip wielded by a Large Creature has the reach of a Large Whip. It makes no sense, but that's the RAW.

Off-topic, since you're using a Whip, have you considered a Bard dip for proficiency, then going Sublime Chord for better spells? May make you better, and gives your entire party +1 to everything for the cost of one action, once per day.

[pup3k]

You could just take a one level dip in Psychic warrior and take Expansion.

[SoD]

Well, on the topic of the bard dip, if that doesn't appeal, you need to take EWP. Once that's done, get a whip-dagger instead, if your DM lets you. Just like a whip, 15 ft. reach, 1d8 leathal damage. Fun, fun, fun. I had a chitine character who quad-weilded them.

[koeldflare]

I'm actually playing in an extremely rules complicated Gestalt game, using a character that has really poor charisma. I was considering Bard but seeing as their is only 2 people in the party I don't feel it'll be as useful. The whole whip thing is for emergencies and delivering juicy touch spells at a slight range.

I just realized that Spectral hand can deliver touch spells up to lvl 3(?). Is there an improved version that can deliver higher level spells?

Edit: Most likely will use whip dagger instead for a weapon
Double Edit: What does the expansion power do, and what level is it?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The Bard dip was to qualify you for Sublime Chord, so that you can get high-level spells. Music was just a bonus for that. (Note this works best with partial BAB).

[koeldflare]

Ok, now that I know that I need to increase my base size to increase my reach, is there any properties that extend reach?

I know there is one that gives an extra 5 ft, but it's limited in uses per day. Is there anything else? Maybe a spell or power?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There's a few. Warshaper (C.War PrC) gives an additional 5' reach whenever you're not in your natural form. Aberrant Blood/Aberrant Reach gives an additional 5', but also costs 2 feats. There's a few other feat combos as well, and I'm sure Wizards has a thread about it, if someone would link. The advantage is, that as long as you gain the reach bonus while medium, it's all doubled when you enlarge, IIRC.

[Xyk]

I think powerful build should work like that. it says for all advantageous effects, you re one size category higher.

[Chronos]

The Bard dip was to qualify you for Sublime Chord, so that you can get high-level spells. Music was just a bonus for that.

Sublime Chord casting is still Cha-based, though, so it won't be much use for a low-Cha character.

[koeldflare]

I think powerful build should work like that. it says for all advantageous effects, you re one size category higher.

What book is powerful build located in?

[Xyk]

Powerful build is not a feat, but a racial attribute. Half-giant, Half-ogre, and goliath are the only races that come to mind. (Expanded Psionics, races of destiny, and races of stone, respectively.)

[FMArthur]

Quoted from the half-giant's Powerful build description (in Expanded Psionics Handbook):

However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size.

Had a player try to pull this on me once, and he got away with it for the session because I hadn't brought the XPH that day. I bring all of my books in a duffel bag to every session now.

[Crowheart]

I think powerful build should work like that. it says for all advantageous effects, you re one size category higher.

Actually, powerful build doesn't quite do that. It lists a specific set of circumstances in which you may consider yourself Large, but you are not considered large in all aspects. For example: you are not considered Large for space and reach requirements, BUT you are considered large for swallowing whole and grapples.

Then again, if you and your DM find it reasonable, then go for it. I'm all for reasonable logic over RAW.

[Talic]

Correct. Now, if you're delivering touch spells with a whip, a 3 level dip in Psy War (with the Practiced Manifester feat) will allow you at level 7, to go up two size categories. That'll bring your reach to 45'.

Standard Enlarge spell will give you 30'.

If you're going Wu Jen, the Spell Giant Size will give you a 75' reach with a whip.

[koeldflare]

Thanks for the info Talic. I think that I'll stick with the standard Enlarge Person spell since part of my build is going to be going towards a Transmuter wizard. Also I'm not playing the tank in my group, so hopefully I won't be near ANY melée anytime soon.

[Hal]

Double Edit: Ok, so I got the reach part down, now for another quick question. How long does a spell last in a weapon after a Duskblade cast it into it? Does it last until discharged or does it have a time limit? On the same note can a weapon have both the Spell Storing property and Duskblade weapon spell type property, and can they both be activated at the same time?

As to the first part, that's going to depend on how your DM interprets the rules. A lot of touch spells (such as Chill Touch) which normally have ongoing effects are considered to be dispelled as soon as you hit. Otherwise, there's nothing in the rules to say that these spells don't act the same as normal touch spells in regards to lasting until used.

Yes, you can use a weapon with Spell Storing AND use a Duskblade's spell channeling ability at the same time, so long as activation of the Spell Storing property isn't a standard action. At the moment, I don't recall what it is.

[SoD]

Powerful build is not a feat, but a racial attribute. Half-giant, Half-ogre, and goliath are the only races that come to mind. (Expanded Psionics, races of destiny, and races of stone, respectively.)

Actually, half-ogre doesn't have powerful build. It's a large sized creature.

[Person_Man]

FYI, whips don't threaten (read the description), and thus can't be used to make attacks of opportunity. So they're useless for any battlefield control build, which is the primary reason you need reach. Whips are primarily useful for Karmic Strike builds.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

FYI, whips don't threaten (read the description), and thus can't be used to make attacks of opportunity. So they're useless for any battlefield control build, which is the primary reason you need reach. Whips are primarily useful for Karmic Strike builds.

And Duskblades with the Whirlwind Attack feat. Yeah, whips don't threaten(Dumb rules, but there it is), but they have some benefits.

[Epinephrine]

Weapon size has no effect on weapon reach. A Large Whip wielded by a Small creature has the reach of a Small Whip, and a Small Whip wielded by a Large Creature has the reach of a Large Whip. It makes no sense, but that's the RAW.

Not exactly - the Players' Handbook implies that the reach weapon must be of the appropriate size (PHB, page 113). Hence, a large creature wielding a small or medium reach weapon gets no benefit, and only gets reach with a reach weapon that is large-sized.

The reach gained by any creature is a function of the creature's size and whether the weapon is an appropriately sized reach weapon.

The game FAQ suggests that wielding a reach weapon that is larger than your size may also grant a reach, though that's not RAW.

Spoiler

Show

From the FAQ:
How do reach weapons work if they are of a different size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for each situation?
A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach. An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large creature wielding a non-reach weapon).

A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further), and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away (as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach from the weapon.

The Player’s Handbook isn’t as clear on this as it could be, although an example of reach in action on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook provides pretty strong support: “A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . .” (italics added). While this reference doesn’t mention the ability to wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size, allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable extension of the spirit and intent of the rule.

[koeldflare]

As to the first part, that's going to depend on how your DM interprets the rules. A lot of touch spells (such as Chill Touch) which normally have ongoing effects are considered to be dispelled as soon as you hit. Otherwise, there's nothing in the rules to say that these spells don't act the same as normal touch spells in regards to lasting until used.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, that if I cast a touch spell into a weapon using the Duskblade class feature, then it is essentially permanent until dischraged?

[Chronos]

Not exactly - the Players' Handbook implies that the reach weapon must be of the appropriate size (PHB, page 113). Hence, a large creature wielding a small or medium reach weapon gets no benefit, and only gets reach with a reach weapon that is large-sized.

The really funny thing about this: If a halfling is wielding an appropriately-sized longspear, he has a 10 foot reach. If a human then wields that exact same longspear (with penalties because it's the wrong size), he only has a 5 foot reach with it. So just because your arms are longer, you can't reach as far.

[Aquillion]

Double Edit: What does the expansion power do, and what level is it?

Expansion is one of the simplest and most convenient ways to increase your size.

It's a first-level power, and for 1 pp it grants you +1 size category for 1/round per level. Unlike Enlarge Person, you can be of any race. So far, so good.

The really awesome part is in the options to augment it:

If you spend 6 additional power points, this power increases your size by two size categories instead of one.

If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action instead of a standard action.

If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per level.

The best part is, of course, the option to gain two size categories instead of one, although swift manifesting and extended duration are also quite nice.

If you get it with a one-level dip, you will have to grab Practiced Manifester as well, at a bare minimum (otherwise it will only last 1 round!) Luckily you get an applicable bonus feat with your first psiwar level. If you have a decent wisdom score, this will also raise your power points by increasing how your bonus pp are calculated (they're based on your manifester level, or more properly your wis mod × your manifester level × ½.) But unless you have some other way to boost your manifester level or cut costs, that still won't leave you with a high enough ML to get two size categories out of it.

So if you want to get two size categories instead of one, I recommend putting at least three levels in psiwar, so you'll have ML 7 with practiced manifester. This will grab you two more powers and an extra feat fighter/psionic feat, too, which can help most builds. You will also need at least 14 wisdom to get the power points you need.

Of course, a one-level dip + practiced manifester also works, but since you don't get any power points from psiwar 1, you'll still need a decent wis modifier -- at least 14, again, would probably be best, giving you 5 power points with practiced manifester.