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2008-08-20, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
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- NY, USA
- Gender
change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
I was wondering has anyone starting to lower their requirements and are considering joining campaigns they would have otherwise avoid? Prior to the announcement of 4E I avoid the following like they were the plague; roll for attributes, fumbles and DMs who take nerf bats to classes (even if I'm not in the mood to play em).
Now I'm considering joining games were you roll for attributes. The reason I avoided in the past because there is usually power gaps between players (someone with high stats and other with low). Also you can't decide what type of character you want to play until after you roll your stats. For example let's say you want to play a monk but instead roll a 18, 11, 10, 12, 9, 11 now you can't play a monk instead you're forced to play a SAD.
As for DMs who love the nerf bat I'm still slightly avoiding but I'm starting to be more receptive. The reason for avoiding them is that I'm afraid of a controlling DM aka a conductor. Sure there are some games imbalances but players and GM should be working together. Please note I said I'm afraid and not saying it's 100% certain.
As for fumbling I'm still steadfast against them.
P.S. Invade if for reason you can't tell I'm ranting because 4E is taking away potential player pool.Last edited by Akisa; 2008-08-22 at 01:47 PM.
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2008-08-20, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
Fumbles are not for serious campaigns. At all. It's hilarious if D&D is just a small part of what is essentially a social gathering. I've had more than one well-built character kill himself with a sword swing in each scenario (one was a critical hit, one was an auto-kill!).
Last edited by FMArthur; 2008-08-20 at 11:44 PM.
- Chameleon Base Class [3.5]/[PF]: A versatile, morphic class that mimics one basic party role (warrior, caster, sneak, etc) at a time. If you find yourself getting bored of any class you play too long, the Chameleon is for you!
- Warlock Power Sources [3.5]: Making Hellfire Warlock part of the base class and providing other similar options for Warlocks whose powers don't come from devils.
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2008-08-20, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- Knoxville, TN
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
I don't understand why 4e is causing you to do this?I am continuing to have a social life. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Serious-Jedi-Me-Avatar by RTG0922. Thanks. Cat-assassin-avatar by onasuma, who I was too dumb to thank. Thanks for that too!
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2008-08-21, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2006
- Location
- A Tavern, DUH!
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
I think that she is trying to say that 4e is lowering her expectations as to what to expect in a game of D&D.
And why can't fumbles be involved in "serious" campains. In fact, how do you define a "serious" campain? Im curious.
(no I don't use fumbles, but I think it could be a funny addition)
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2008-08-21, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.
5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist
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2008-08-21, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- Koth
- Gender
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2008-08-21, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
I read it as a scarcity of 3.x games leading to a forced tolerance of the unwanted characteristics.
If that's the case, then no, nothing much has changed for me, but then again, I've been in an RPG dry spell since May.
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2008-08-21, 03:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
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- Piercing the heavens!
- Gender
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2008-08-21, 03:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
- Location
- Gor, spilling paga again
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
I used to think the same, but then I tried, experimentally, swinging a stick around. For some reason, no matter what I did, I managed to beat myself over the head with it, stumble and fall, or fling it far away about 1 out of every 20 swings. It's a good thing I rolled a 1 on damage that time I hit myself, or I might have wound up at negative hit points and dying.
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2008-08-21, 04:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Houston, TX
- Gender
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2008-08-21, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Location
- Houston, TX
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
My current DM has decided to do this, and we are running a 4e adventure, some of the players rolled stats while 3 of us chose to buy stats because we wanted a real feel for the new system. The DM not only brought in a fumble chart, but brought in 3.5 Critical cards, so each time someone rolls a Crit, we have to stop determine what type of damage it is, depending on the weapon it can take several minutes since the player using a sword might debate on whether to say he's slashing or piercing.
Sure it adds a little flare, emphasis on little, to the game, but having half the party scrounge around because the other half kept rolling 1's while the DM kept hitting Nat20's. We had 1 character death, and the wizard was out for almost the entire fight thanks to him fumbling on an Icy Ray. The Character death wasn't that bad and in fact great timing since that player would no longer be joining us due to school starting again.
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2008-08-21, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
- Location
- Gor, spilling paga again
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
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2008-08-21, 04:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
And one out of twenty torpedoes shot by Enterprise explodes while still in the tube.
Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
Spoiler
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2008-08-21, 04:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Houston, TX
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
Your sarcasm fails to impress.
The typical method for doing it in D&D (at least, the book method) requires a roll of 1 on the attack, FOLLOWED by a DC 5 dex check.
Now, particulary agile characters can catch themselves most of the time, and the REALLY quick ones can do it all the time, but the average person has about a 1% chance of fumbling.
Someone with a 14-15 dex? about a 0.5%.
So, if you figure that Mr. Hector had a 16 dex (0.25% chance of fumble), he'd make some sort of slip up on a 1 in 400 chance.
It should almost never be "hit yourself" unless the weapon is something like nunchucks.
But self disarms? Slipping and going to a knee (high ground bonus to opponent), load-and-fire weapon jamming? All within the bounds of common sense, and you'll even find that they can serve to increase dramatic tension, often as not.
So yeah, the blatant sarcasm? Not doing anything for your cause, and pretty much only coming off as disrespectful to those you talk to. It would have been at least forgivable, however, if you'd bothered to actually portray the mechanic you're ridiculing as if you knew it well enough to make an informed judgement on it.Last edited by Talic; 2008-08-21 at 04:31 AM.
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2008-08-21, 04:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
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2008-08-21, 04:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Gender
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2008-08-21, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Unfriend Zone
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2008-08-21, 04:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
Anyway, fumbles affect high-level characters more than low-level ones (a high-level TWFer might fumble every other round!), and slow down gameplay (and do 3.5 turns need to be any slower?!). I'm against them.
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2008-08-21, 04:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Houston, TX
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
I generally consider the difference between wit and buffoonery to lie in knowledge of the subject matter.
A high level TWFer needs an increasingly high dex to have his TWF feats. This lowers his odds, and eventually gets rid of them.
I suggest consulting your DMG more closely for the specific alternate rule, in that case.Last edited by Talic; 2008-08-21 at 04:41 AM.
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2008-08-21, 05:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Unfriend Zone
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2008-08-21, 05:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Houston, TX
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
The one I'm specifically referencing is 3.5.
I mean really people, the mechanic works almost exactly like scroll mishap chances...
Or is that "not heroic" also?
I mean, trail rations aren't exactly "heroic", nor is the PC or BBEG getting hit by the triple 20 insta kill rule, or crafting alchemist's fire.
Not everything has to be comprised of epic win.
Heroes still eat, sleep, and go to the latrine.
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2008-08-21, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
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- Sweden
- Gender
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2008-08-21, 05:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
- Location
- Gor, spilling paga again
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
The typical method for doing it in D&D (at least, the book method) requires a roll of 1 on the attack, FOLLOWED by a DC 5 dex check.It would have been at least forgivable, however, if you'd bothered to actually portray the mechanic you're ridiculing as if you knew it well enough to make an informed judgement on it.
Yes, I admit, I never noticed that variant rule before. Frankly, like ghost warlock, I've never seen any DM use fumbles in any fashion but "oops, natural 1; you hit yourself in the foot," and certainly I've never seen one use that optional rule, which apparently you haven't either if you saw it being applied as a DC 5 check.
Okay, so in the hands of all three DMs who use that variant fumble rule as written, the average person (Dex 10) fumbles one out of every 40 swings, meaning dragons accidentally bite themselves or claw their own wings off 2.5 percent of the time. The rest of the time, it's one in 20. Is that really a terribly important distinction?Last edited by Kiara LeSabre; 2008-08-21 at 05:36 AM.
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2008-08-21, 05:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
Isn't this an optional rule that isn't even official, just widely-used? It also works against the players, too, because it means every blow at the character has a 1/8000 chance of one-shotting it. If you got attacked 5500 times during your career, there's a 50% chance one of those attacks one-shotted you. Even if most of these attacks were pinecones falling from trees at your head.
Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
Spoiler
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2008-08-21, 05:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
- Location
- Gor, spilling paga again
- Gender
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2008-08-21, 05:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
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2008-08-21, 05:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Houston, TX
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
Depends. Those fumble rules do certainly leave a bit open to what a fumble entails, and are generally for experienced GMs. For example. It's rather difficult to hit yourself, unless you're using a weapon easy to lose control of... Such as, say, nunchucks, a flail, a spiked chain, or the like.
However, in armor, it's very possible for a joint in the armor to lock up (auto-miss as normal, future attacks with that arm have a -1 penalty, until you take a move action to unstick it).
If people have been wounded, it's quite possible to slip on blood (drop to 1 knee, opponents get high ground advantage until you take a move action to stand).
Crossbow? Jams. Unusable until you reload it, per the crossbow's reload time.
Dragon? Misses, enemy, over-reached. Treat as entangled for 1 round.
The "oh, you miss, you hit yourself" is probably the least imaginative answer for a rule that CALLS for imagination, and making stuff up.
As for the correction? I'd say missing an entire step is a great deal more severe than getting a detail of the step incorrect. And yes, it does make a difference, especially when you keep fumble effects largely minor. In that case, they can add flavor and tension when they happen.Last edited by Talic; 2008-08-21 at 05:50 AM.
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2008-08-21, 05:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
Because what third edition needs is more things to track!
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2008-08-21, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- Koth
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
Man, sarcasm is one thing, but now you're messing with statistics.
Even with 50 repetitions, you've still got an 8% chance or so to not get a single nat 1.
In games like GURPS and BRP, the odds of fumbling tend to be 1% to 5%, and older RQ versions, for instance, have fumble tables - drop your weapon, helmet slips on your eyes, etc.
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2008-08-21, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2008
- Location
- Gor, spilling paga again
- Gender
Re: change of requirements for gaming due to 4e?
A statistician is a person who will stick his head in a freezer and his feet in an oven and tell you that, on the whole, he's perfectly fine.
Even with 50 repetitions, you've still got an 8% chance or so to not get a single nat 1.Last edited by Kiara LeSabre; 2008-08-21 at 06:32 AM.