LA and Point-Buy

[kpenguin]

So, with a new school year starting, I hope to convince my friends into a new campaign. Our old one fell into nothing during the summer and I suspect everyone has lost their character sheets.

As I prepare for another round of DMing (I'm the only one who's willing to do it), I thought over an idea to expand choice in race. What about reducing the point buy for certain races and increasing it for certain races? My thoughts:

LA +1 = 25 point buy
LA +0 = 28 point buy
Certain races (Half-elves, Half-orcs, kobolds, etc.) = 32 point buy

How balanced is this?

[Tempest Fennac]

I tend to just alter the normal stats for races so that they are more inline with the LA 0 races. For instnace, my LA 0 Lizardfolk has +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 Natural Armour, a +2 bonus to all balance, jump and swim checks and they can hold their breath for 4 times as long as other races (they get Common and Draconic as known languages, and they don't have any extra HDs). Did you want me to help you with balancing other races? Changing PB is an interresting idea, but it could complicate things (eg: some LA+1 races may not get as many stat bonuses as others; Assimars have an advantage over Tieflings due to not having a stat penalty).

[kpenguin]

Actually, for races with Racial HD, I tend to keep the HD and make small adjustments to lower the LA.

I feel that the Racial HD justifies having some special abilities like holding your breath for a long time or being especially smelly.

[Tempest Fennac]

Okay (I tend to see the levels as more of a hindrance, so I tend to just nerf the race while dropping those). I suppose another way of balancing races with LA is to make sure they end up with a +2 stat bonus altogether (eg: as they are, Tieflings and Gnolls both get a +1, but Assimars would need to lose either the +2 Wis or Cha bonus or get a +2 penalty to a stat). Incidentally, would you say my LA 0 Lizardfolk is balanced?

[Dhavaer]

Incidentally, would you say my LA 0 Lizardfolk is balanced?

+2 natural armour looks a bit high for LA 0. Kobolds only get +1, and they have awful stat penalties too.

[kpenguin]

I'd say its balanced, although I might want to give them a bite natural attack.

+2 natural armour looks a bit high for LA 0. Kobolds only get +1, and they have awful stat penalties too.

Kobolds are horribly balanced. The fact that they can get all the add-ons from the Races of Dragon web enhancement and barely be suitable for a PC makes them a dubious standard for balance.

[Tempest Fennac]

I know what you mean. My Kobold variant has +2 Dex and Cha, -2 Str and Con, Darkvision 60', movement 30'/round and +2 to all Trapmaking, Search and Mining checks. How powerful would you make the bite attack?

[Tormsskull]

Balance is subjective. IMO a good content designer will try to balance by the baseline, i.e. Core 3 Books. If you try to balance a new race against a race from a splatbook you are dealing with the inherent power creep.

[Tempest Fennac]

Apart from Dwarves, which LA 0 races would you class as unbalanced?

[RagnaroksChosen]

wisper gnomes

[Tempest Fennac]

How are they broken? I'll try and find some information about them.

EDIT: I know what you mean about some of their abilities being a bit too powerful. (Page 21 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...ndex-Races.pdf .)

[LordOkubo]

Balance is subjective. IMO a good content designer will try to balance by the baseline, i.e. Core 3 Books. If you try to balance a new race against a race from a splatbook you are dealing with the inherent power creep.

How about, a good designer balances against a base line, which can be anything they want depending on what the want played.

If you balance everything against core but still allow other races, then everyone plays Whispergnomes and Lesser Tieflings anyway.

[Tempest Fennac]

What are Lesser Tieflings like? I tend to play as half-animal races like Lupins or Phanatons as well as an LA 0 Gnoll (+2 Str and Con, -2 Int and Cha, Darkvision 60', 1d6 Bite Attack, +1 NA and Spot and Listen always as class skills).

[Dhavaer]

What are Lesser Tieflings like?

As I understand it, they're exactly like Tieflings except they're LA +0 and aren't Outsiders.

[Tormsskull]

If you balance everything against core but still allow other races, then everyone plays Whispergnomes and Lesser Tieflings anyway.

True, that's why I don't allow those other races in my campaigns. If it isn't balanced with the core races, I don't let it in.

LA 0 Gnoll (+2 Str and Con, -2 Int and Cha, Darkvision 60', 1d6 Bite Attack, +1 NA and Spot and Listen always as class skills).

That seems quite unbalanced IMO, unless the DM is balancing it with cultural disadvantages based on the fact that this character is a gnoll.

Without taking any of the setting into consideration, if you have the option of a 1/2 Orc or this LA 0 Gnoll, why would you ever pick the 1/2 orc?

[Tempest Fennac]

I cant thind that Tiefling now (I saw it somewhere). How is my Gnoll variant that unbalanced? (Some people have told me that it's fine while others have said it was slightly overpowered.) To be fair, Half-Orcs are really underpowered as they are.

[Dhavaer]

I cant thind that Tiefling now (I saw it somewhere).

I think it's in the Player's Guide to Faerun, but I'm not sure.

[Tempest Fennac]

There is one version on http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a which keeps the Native Outsider type. I'll try to find the other one which is a Humanoid.

[Tormsskull]

I cant thind that Tiefling now (I saw it somewhere). How is my Gnoll variant that unbalanced? (Some people have told me that it's fine while others have said it was slightly overpowered.) To be fair, Half-Orcs are really underpowered as they are.

I guess it depends on your playstyle. But it is clear from the core books that a bonus to Strength is considered quite powerful, which is why they offset that with a negative to Intelligence AND Charisma.

Your gnoll not only ignores this rule, but coupled with the + Constitution really becomes a no-brainer choice for most melee characters. Not to mention the +1 Natural Armor which stacks with regular armor. Clearly unbalanced when compared to core.

If you are comparing your gnoll to non-core races, then it might truly be balanced (or even underpowered, I know the races have gotten stronger through more books).

What might be a good idea to use to compare your gnoll is Pathfinder's core races, as they pumped them up to try and compete with all of the splat races.

[Dhavaer]

There is one version on http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a which keeps the Native Outsider type. I'll try to find the other one which is a Humanoid.

That might be it, I've never seen it myself.

[Frownbear]

I guess it depends on your playstyle. But it is clear from the core books that a bonus to Strength is considered quite powerful, which is why they offset that with a negative to Intelligence AND Charisma.

And half-orcs are terrible as a result! They messed up there.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for telling me. I tend to see the stats as being equal due to how important they are depending on the character's class (eg: Cha is pretty useless for a lot of of classes, but it's essential for Paladins, Bards and Sorcerers, and Cleric builds which use Turning for other things). I tend to see +1 NA as weaker then the +1 bonus which Halflings get to all of their saving throws to be honest. I'll download the Pathfinder thing once I've found out whether I'm getting a new laptop or not (a couple of other people have mentioned it to me as well). That is a different Tiefling variant (the one I'm thinking of was ona forum).

[Tormsskull]

And half-orcs are terrible as a result! They messed up there.

Terrible compared to what? For a 2-handed weapon fighter the difference between a 16 strength and an 18 strength is huge. Having a +2 Strength makes it easier (rolling method) or even simple (PB method).

In exchange, how many fighters care about Charisma? Or Intelligence for that matter. If you're going for a tactical type fighter (Combat Expertise and the like), then sure, -2 Int hits you right in the gut. But for a pure-damage type fighter, it is virtually meaningless.

Again, sure, compare the 1/2 orc to non-core races and he is probably abyssmal. But compared to core races I think he is balanced. I know in my groups everytime someone plays a barbarian they always pick 1/2 orc.

[Tempest Fennac]

I tend to see sill points as important, so I'd class the -2 Int as a huge problem even if I was playing as a 2-handed weapon specialist. Also, apart from a Str bonus and DV, Half-Orcs get practically no bonuses at all compared with Elves and Dwarves (admittedly, there are only a few classes where the Elf weapon proficiencies are really useful).

[Fostire]

The lesser tiefling have the humanoid type (not outsider) with the planetouched subtype. They are affected by spells and effects that specifically target both humanoids or outsiders. The lesser races variant is from players guide to faerun page 190.

[LordOkubo]

True, that's why I don't allow those other races in my campaigns. If it isn't balanced with the core races, I don't let it in.

Yes, and my point is that Core races are just one point of balance, and no more or less valid then good races.

Not to mention, Core races aren't balanced, Dwarf, Human, Halfing are awesome, Half Orc, Half Elf, crap. Other's in between.

That's just like saying all classes need to be balanced against Core classes. Balanced against what? Wizard/Druid/Cleric awesome Fighter/Bard/Ranger/Monk/Paladin crap. Rogue/Barb, in between.

[LordOkubo]

Terrible compared to what? For a 2-handed weapon fighter the difference between a 16 strength and an 18 strength is huge. Having a +2 Strength makes it easier (rolling method) or even simple (PB method).

In exchange, how many fighters care about Charisma? Or Intelligence for that matter. If you're going for a tactical type fighter (Combat Expertise and the like), then sure, -2 Int hits you right in the gut. But for a pure-damage type fighter, it is virtually meaningless.

Again, sure, compare the 1/2 orc to non-core races and he is probably abyssmal. But compared to core races I think he is balanced. I know in my groups everytime someone plays a barbarian they always pick 1/2 orc.

See, your real problem is that people choose races good for their class. +2 Int is ****, unless you are a Wizard.

Look at the races with +2 Cha: Star Elf/Hellbred/Spellscale, all have a -2 Con penalty.

This isn't making them balanced against anything, this is just slapping a "Sorcerers only" tag on them.

[Frownbear]

Terrible compared to what? For a 2-handed weapon fighter the difference between a 16 strength and an 18 strength is huge. Having a +2 Strength makes it easier (rolling method) or even simple (PB method).

Having a bonus to your primary stat is ALWAYS good.

In exchange, how many fighters care about Charisma? Or Intelligence for that matter. If you're going for a tactical type fighter (Combat Expertise and the like), then sure, -2 Int hits you right in the gut. But for a pure-damage type fighter, it is virtually meaningless.

Each class has stats that are meaningless. The half-orc gets penalties to two stats rather than one for no reason.

Again, sure, compare the 1/2 orc to non-core races and he is probably abyssmal. But compared to core races I think he is balanced. I know in my groups everytime someone plays a barbarian they always pick 1/2 orc.

Whisper gnomes or not, Dwarves are one of the most overpowered races, and they're core. Want to compare half-orcs to dwarves?

STR is not special. +1 AB and +1 or 2 damage? As a Rogue I'd rather have +2 DEX.

Each class uses a certain stat or stats. Why pretend Strength is more important? Sure, you see some of half-orc barbarians (I'd still rather play a human or dwarven one), but you see a lot of halfling rogues, grey elf wizards, dwarven fighters, etc.

[Tormsskull]

Yes, and my point is that Core races are just one point of balance, and no more or less valid then good races.

What is a good race? One that is more mechanically powerful than the core races? If so, I think the reason we are not seeing eye-to-eye is that you are caught up in the "more powerful = better" mindset.

If you were to remove the core races as choices, or increase their powerlevel, and then say "this is the new baseline" ala Pathfinder, then sure, a lot of these splat races would be more balanced.

But if you leave the core races in as is and also offer splat races, balance becomes a problem.

Not to mention, Core races aren't balanced, Dwarf, Human, Halfing are awesome, Half Orc, Half Elf, crap. Other's in between.

I don't think the 1/2 orc is crap at all. I'd agree that the 1/2 elf is subpar.

That's just like saying all classes need to be balanced against Core classes. Balanced against what? Wizard/Druid/Cleric awesome Fighter/Bard/Ranger/Monk/Paladin crap. Rogue/Barb, in between.

Against a similiar class, obviously. If you make a new class that is going to be a melee fighter, wear heavy armor, and use shields, it probably should be balanced against fighters. If you make a class that is going to have a lot of skill points it probably should be balanced against a rogue. And if you make a spellcaster, it probably should be balanced against a similiar spellcaster.

See, your real problem is that people choose races good for their class. +2 Int is ****, unless you are a Wizard.

I didn't realize I had a problem. And no, +2 Int isn't crap unless you are a wizard. I personally am a big fan of having lots of skills, so I would tend to look favorably upon a + Int race. Tempest Fennac said much the same.

Look at the races with +2 Cha: Star Elf/Hellbred/Spellscale, all have a -2 Con penalty.

This isn't making them balanced against anything, this is just slapping a "Sorcerers only" tag on them.

So you only ever select a race that has a bonus to the primary stat of your class?

[Tempest Fennac]

I tend to see fluff as being important regarding what a good race is (eg: the race I posted on here is my ideal race, but a lot of people would hate playing as them, and they aren't that great if you want a melee warrior due to their Str penalty).

Getting back OT, do you guys think Kpenguin's idea would work? I'm guessing that some classes would still need some modifications to be balanced with this system. Also, would races with racial HDs keep them, nd if they do, would they need to earn them as levels?