Good demons?

[Jayngfet]

Since we've got a celbite succubus paladins statted out and demon worshipers(drow) converting en masse. Considering that there are infinite demons spread out across seperate universes, just how often will a good demon pop up? And I don't mean paladin good I mean rogue who still steals good.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Standard D&D cosmology says that the Abyss is (supposedly)infinite. This means an infinite amount of demons, and thus any fraction of that infinity will still be infinity.
That being said, still very very very very very very very rarely will you find a demon that won't want to make you less happy than you were before meeting it.

[Collin152]

Standard D&D cosmology says that the Abyss is (supposedly)infinite. This means an infinite amount of demons, and thus any fraction of that infinity will still be infinity.
That being said, still very very very very very very very rarely will you find a demon that won't want to make you less happy than you were before meeting it.

Ye, the actual number is infinite.
But the fraction is still a rational number.

That's what he wants.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Ye, the actual number is infinite.
But the fraction is still a rational number.

That's what he wants.

In that case it's up to either the DM or just 0.001d2% at any given time. At least in my opinion.

[SadisticFishing]

Well, the Abyss is infinite, and has infinite demons in it, but demons are Chaotic Evil.

That Succubus wasn't 100% a demon anymore after converting. So there aren't infinite.

I'd say... 3?

I don't know, this question seems arbitrary. How many as DM do you want there to be? How many as a player do you need there to be? If as a player you plan on finding one, you will not. It's not possible, unless your DM really wants you to.

[Stupendous_Man]

Well, the Abyss is infinite, and has infinite demons in it, but demons are Chaotic Evil.

That Succubus wasn't 100% a demon anymore after converting. So there aren't infinite.

I'd say... 3?

I don't know, this question seems arbitrary. How many as DM do you want there to be? How many as a player do you need there to be? If as a player you plan on finding one, you will not. It's not possible, unless your DM really wants you to.

Bah, the answer is 42!

[Collin152]

It's directally preportional to the number of Helms of Opposite Alignment in the universe.

[puppyavenger]

It's directally preportional to the number of Helms of Opposite Alignment in the universe.

ah but helm of opposite alignment can be used infinite times, so it can be any number compared to them. and how wasn't that demon a demon after becoming a palidan?

[fractic]

ah but helm of opposite alignment can be used infinite times, so it can be any number compared to them. and how wasn't that demon a demon after becoming a palidan?

Using it takes time so unless you have an infinite amount of time it will only have been used a finite number of times.

[DraPrime]

Technically it's impossible for there to be a good demon. A demon is an incarnation of chaos and evil. It is fundamentally just that, chaotic evil. It is part of it's inherent nature. Just like it is hydrogen's nature to burn, it's a demon's nature to be chaotic and evil. It's simply impossible for it to happen (assuming that the DnD world works in a consistent way without any foolish DMs interfering), and if it did then wouldn't the demon stop being a demon? Chaos and evil are such fundamental parts of a demon that if it stopped being any one of those it wouldn't be a demon. I'm not sure exactly what it would be. "Some kind of outsider" is the best I can come up with right now.

[Collin152]

ah but helm of opposite alignment can be used infinite times, so it can be any number compared to them.

Yes, but it stands to reason that the more there are, the larger the chance it would be used on a Demon.

[puppyavenger]

Using it takes time so unless you have an infinite amount of time it will only have been used a finite number of times.

ah but as the Abyss is infinite, presumable there would be at least one plane where time was infinite, and several others where it goes backwards, sideways, inwards, or towards the idealip. of legitimate leadership

[Proven_Paradox]

It depends entirely on your own view of the cosmology, really. Anywhere one might have fallen celestials, I think you should be able to find risen demons. Both can make for interesting characters. As for chances? I think the fraction Krimm gave isn't far off. Maybe even lower. It should be rare, whatever it is. Of course, the same might be said for drow, and the stereotype holds that it really isn't.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I was about too say.

Unfallen Angels.

[Cilvyn]

I would say a good demon = an angel..

[FMArthur]

I suppose it depends on what % of always [alignment] are deviants. The MM says it's either unique or extremely rare, but are there any rules somewhere else for it? It might be a random-generation thing done with a d% in some book, somewhere. I kind of doubt it.

To me, 1/1000 sounds like a good number. Divide that by a hundred (for 1/100000) for such creatures who are able to survive amongst or decieve their fellow demons.

[Shazzbaa]

It's simply impossible for it to happen (assuming that the DnD world works in a consistent way without any foolish DMs interfering), and if it did then wouldn't the demon stop being a demon? Chaos and evil are such fundamental parts of a demon that if it stopped being any one of those it wouldn't be a demon. I'm not sure exactly what it would be. "Some kind of outsider" is the best I can come up with right now.

Yeah, in a campaign I'm in now, our cleric used a spell that forced a pit fiend to become Good on a fail save.... and he's currently forcing it to assist us before he'll atone the poor thing. My DM figured that a Good devil probably changes back into an angel, so he ruled that it is now, for all intents and purposes, a solar.
....However, we're pretty much also at a loss as to what would happen to a demon. We pondered that perhaps they became creatures of pure chaos or pure chaos and good, rather than pure chaos and evil, and I can't quite recall what that monster is.

I think by the D&D mythos as written, Good demons are impossible. However, it isn't hard to tweak the fluff and justify them, so overall it's up to the DM.

OOoooooof course, I'm still thinking in terms of 3.5, so that's probably totally different in 4e.

[Agrippa]

I remember an unofficial Dicefreaks template called Penitent Fiend. Basically it changes said fiend's alignment and alignment subtype to Good, replaces all Evil spells, spell-like abillities and supernatural powers with equivalent Good powers, replaces telepathy with tounges at will, replaces all harmful Necromancy spells with (Healing) spells (except perhaps spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Waves of Fatigue) and replaces the Demon, Daemon or Devil subtype (Tanar'i, Yuogloth and Baa'tzu subtypes if you prefer) with the Angel subtype. Otherwise it looks pretty much the same as any non-Penitent Fiend and has the same stats.

[monty]

....However, we're pretty much also at a loss as to what would happen to a demon. We pondered that perhaps they became creatures of pure chaos or pure chaos and good, rather than pure chaos and evil, and I can't quite recall what that monster is.

Maybe an Eladrin? BoED describes them as basically the chaotic counterparts of the archons.

Anyway, let's assume that the probability of a demon being non-evil is some non-zero value. It can be the multiplicative inverse of Graham's number for all I care, as long as it's greater than zero. If the number of demons is infinite, then the number of non-evil demons must also be infinite.

If, on the other hand, the probability is exactly zero, then we get into weird possibilities.

[AslanCross]

OOoooooof course, I'm still thinking in terms of 3.5, so that's probably totally different in 4e.

4E Demons are corrupted elemental creatures and are not considered "Immortals" like devils or angels. They're basically pieces of the Abyss (which itself is corrupted elemental force) given sentience. According to the 4E Monster Manual, they don't live very long and get recycled back into the maelstrom. The demon lords are corrupt Primordials, so they are immortal. The rank-and-file aren't.

Given that, I guess demons could be "purified," if only for a short time before they cease to exist.

[Shazzbaa]

Eladrin! Yes, that was what they decided; thanks.

And yeah, I've read most of the 4e mythos, I just wasn't quite sure how a "purified" demon would begin to work under their version of the abyss. ^^;

[Frosty]

itmust be very confusing for a redeemed Succubus paladin. Imagine radiating Goodness, Evilness, Chaoticness, AND Lawfulness all at once.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Good and non-evil demons and devils were canon in AD&D Planescape, which is still the best freaking version of the D&D cosmology. There was a "redeemed" osyluth in Celestia, just like there was a fallen evil angel running a city in Baator. (Pretty sure these two were the only to creatures like this mentioned in the fiend supplement, mind you. So yes, they're rare, but they're so rare they'll also be famous.)

[jcsw]

itmust be very confusing for a redeemed Succubus paladin. Imagine radiating Goodness, Evilness, Chaoticness, AND Lawfulness all at once.

IIRC According to fiendish codex II the pact primordial has an overwhelming lawful, good, and evil aura, enough to make anyone detecting it's alignment confused.... I wonder if something similar would happen to the Succubus...

[AslanCross]

Eladrin! Yes, that was what they decided; thanks.

And yeah, I've read most of the 4e mythos, I just wasn't quite sure how a "purified" demon would begin to work under their version of the abyss. ^^;

I'm not so sure either. >_o Maybe they just dissolve when they become good. o_o

I have a 3.0 adventure (Lord of the Iron Fortress) that has a Fallen Trumpet Archon. He's still an archon (and can be persuaded to turn back if the players really wanted to), but for the most part he's simply an archon with his alignment-specific spells and abilities "reskinned" to work for evil and against good instead.

The only thing here is that I tend to believe it's easier for the good outsiders to fall than for the evil outsiders to be redeemed. But that's just me.

[Mastikator]

I would say that a demon is a spiritual personifisation of chaotic evil, it's not a demon if it's not chaotic evil.

So no, you can't have a non-evil or non-chaotic demon because it wouldn't be a demon.

This "infinite" thing just means that some demons would change their ways and stop being demons.

[Spiryt]

Well, there was

Spoiler

Show

Fall from Grace, but:

- she was Lawful Neutral, I think
- I don't remember if it was explained how shecan be LN succubuss

Probably must play Torment once again.

[celestialkin]

It's directally preportional to the number of Helms of Opposite Alignment in the universe.

Um, not quite.

It is directly proportional to the number of Helms of Opposite Alignemnt + Deck of Many things in a multiverse.

I just came back from the bi-weekly game I run, and in it the imp which just joined the party's crew (it cut a deal to get off an island where it was imprison) decided to "borrow" one of the party member's Deck of Many Things to play with some crew NPCs and another of the PCs. He is now CG, and has an Assimar 4th level fighter sent straight from Celestia to assist him "redeem" himself.

There went some plothooks and storyline I had been planning.

[nagora]

Since we've got a celbite succubus paladins statted out and demon worshipers(drow) converting en masse. Considering that there are infinite demons spread out across seperate universes, just how often will a good demon pop up?

Never. Demons are made by/from Evil and can't be anything else by definition.

[hamishspence]

By strict definition a Demon is any Extraplanar Outsider with both the Chaotic and Evil subtypes.

Demonweb pits gives us the Cambion, a Usually Chaotic evil demon with a trace of non-demon blood, and is describes as 10% are Not Evil.

so, thats a pretty fair example. D&D has had exeptions to the Always Evil rule for a long time, and that has included fiends. So, yes, you can have a non-evil demon. Monster Manual even goes out of its way to say that non-evil creatures with Evil subtype suffer penalties of both alignments.