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Thread: Average Level
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2008-08-26, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Average Level
One thing i've noticed is that most builds go to 20, and don't usually explain where the power starts coming in.
Personally, I've never experienced a game at over 16, and that was a rare and short-lived experience. The majority of my time has been spent below ten.
Why do so many builds go to 20? What level do you guys play at? I've heard bad things about 20+, is it really that way?Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
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2008-08-26, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Average Level
Builds go to 20 so you can see what your progression will look like IF the campaign continues that far. Since few do, it's not that useful, but on the off chance it happens, it's nice to have a plan.
At level 21 and up, yeah, the universe breaks. Epic Spellcasting really is that INSANE. Ask Tippy if you need proof.
I've played games at all levels of power in 3.5 (even a game where we used some of the Immortal's Handbook rules... that was freakin' crazy), and really, if everyone puts a little thought into their characters before the game starts, just enough to go, "I'm thinking about Dwarven Defender" (or whatever), it helps speed up leveling and whatnot. Planning builds ahead is useful, if you're into that anyway.
-argus
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2008-08-26, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: Average Level
Stolen from Bayar
My PC likes hamburgers but prefers cheeseburgers. Any LG Paladin should Wish for a CG Candle of Invocation to Summon a Noble Djinni or a Solar. Pazuzu probably amused at a lowly Paladin having a Demon Lord grant him a Wish to command a Solar to grant a Wish for something like Summoning a Noble Djinni for more wishes of questionable purposes. Gate spell doesn't cause creature to forget.
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2008-08-26, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: Average Level
Actually, he's built a fully legal (it doesn't even need any sketchy ruleslawyering, unless you count Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos working on elf bonus feats, which is fully legal) nigh-indestructible/undetectable blaster wizard that can one-shot just about anything... at level 17 or 18.
But Epic Spellcasting really ramps up the insanity.
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2008-08-26, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Average Level
Yeah, saw that.
However, I was talking about stuff like the damn Telekinetic Sphere around the whole world, and similar crap. I saw an Epic Spell someone around here made that could create an ENTIRE GALAXY in one round. There's nothing to say, except:
>_>
<_<
>_<
-argus
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2008-08-26, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Average Level
I have never gone over level four.
Most builds go to level 20 because a lot of the really, really cool/broken abilitities come at higher levels.Check out my class, the Clothfighter.
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2008-08-26, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Average Level
Games I've played in usually started at lvl 3 and ended around 8-9. Now for the first time in my life I'm playing a lvl 10 character with tendency toward greatness (lvl 20). And man is it more fun than lower lvls. The only reason I'll play in forthcoming Age of Worms AP beginning at lvl 1 is because I'm positive I'll reach lvl 20.
Common sense is not so common.
Nanfoodle the Maverick, Conjurer of expensive tricks
SpoilerOriginally Posted by I'm da Rogue!
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2008-08-26, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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2008-08-26, 08:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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2008-08-26, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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2008-08-26, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Average Level
Depends on the style of play.
For me, the "Sweet Spot" has always been somewhere between level 8-12. You start being able to pull off a few bits of insanity when the need arises, but your characters are still risking their necks in any serious conflict.
In that range, you've got a lot of options, but not a whole lot of broken.
But sometimes it's just fun to play at the extreme ends of the spectrum.
(I still want to get my "commoner conscript" game off the ground but everyone looks at me in mild horror when I bring it up.)
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2008-08-26, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Average Level
I don't know the link, but I've seen the build.
It relies on:
1. A feat (from Fiendish Codex IIRC) that allows you to swap feats (Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos). Edit: It's a spell, not a feat.
2. Starting as an elf and using that feat to replace all the weapon proficiency feats that elves get with more useful caster feats (eg. swapping Weapon Proficiency (Longsword) for Quicken Spell, Twin Spell etc.)
3. Reading metamagic adjustment feats as allowing adjustment to -1 (eg. A metamagic feat that is normally +0 spell level becomes -1 spell level and thus allows you to add a +1 spell level metamagic for free (which is actually normally a +2 metamagic before the adjustment).
It's probably the best piece of one-eyed RAW I've ever seen for 3e and I admire the work that went into finding the loopholes. Would I ever allow it into my game as a DM, or play alongside it (or with it) as a player? Never. Ever.Last edited by Colmarr; 2008-08-27 at 01:19 AM.
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2008-08-26, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Average Level
Um, sorry, it's all 2-eyed RAW with no loopholes, just a more intelligent use of things then was expected by the designers.
Secondly, it doesn't even really require all those things, since a basic Incantatrix 20 With Persist Spell is already invulnerable.
The rest is just gravy to give yourself a single spell that defeats 90% of enemies.
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2008-08-26, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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Re: Average Level
I love playing pre-Epic games (16-20), but with heavy houseruling to prevent Wizards from boning the reality in the rear too hard. And yea, obviously I don't allow Incantatrix without heavy houseruling (just as I don't allow Planar Shepherd without heavy houseruling). I like my campaign world, thank you very much, and I'd rather not have some errant Wizard rebuilding the universe on a whim.
The power is really appealing for the group - when all characters play on the same level, the combat can get really interesting with all the magic, countermagic (Battlemagic Perception and Duelward are musts on those levels - also, Ring of Counterspells in all its incarnations and so on) and contingencies - much like a strategy game of depleting opponent's resources and finding the least deflectable course of attack. Of course, this is the "high-level casters play Rocket Launcher Tag and nobody else gets to play"-thing.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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2008-08-26, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Average Level
Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos are both spells, level 8 for either a Cleric or a Sorceror/Wizard, with a 250xp component to cast, and no DM in their right mind would allow a character to exploit them in the manner that is suggested. Whilst it might be fine under RAW, that's why a DM is supposed to control what a player can and cannot do. Some things are just exploits and should be viewed as such.
That being said, the morality of a character that is willing to cast Embrace the Dark Chaos, or one who is willing to be the recipient of it, is severely in question, and in fact should result in alignment shift to chaotic (if they weren't already) due to the result of casting said spell. And whilst the text specifically says that they aren't evil in nature (the abyssal heritor feats) it's not a stretch of the imagination to see that such a character would gain the attention of the abyss, quite possibly to their detriment.
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2008-08-26, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
Re: Average Level
You have to play with other people who know what they're doing, in levels above 10, or it's just ridiculous how much of a power disparity there can be between players. Having played a campaign that went from 3 to 16 in a party with a good player, a mediocre player, and two clueless ones, it is not fun to see them struggle. Wasn't even a caster/non-caster split; some people just haven't learned enough about the game to play it effectively. This becomes more and more apparent as character options become availible and planned growth begins to come to fruition.
- Chameleon Base Class [3.5]/[PF]: A versatile, morphic class that mimics one basic party role (warrior, caster, sneak, etc) at a time. If you find yourself getting bored of any class you play too long, the Chameleon is for you!
- Warlock Power Sources [3.5]: Making Hellfire Warlock part of the base class and providing other similar options for Warlocks whose powers don't come from devils.
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2008-08-27, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Average Level
1) Oh noes, they are chaotic. Or just neutral and willing to do anything to accomplish their goals.
2) Oh noes, they have the Abysses attention, to their detriment. How is this different from all the other PCs ever played who all have to fight things? It's actually more useful then not, because it allows you to pick who you fight, and I'd prefer it be Pit Fiends to Balors or Solars.
3) I'm sorry, why would no good DM ever allow you to use such a technique to get the feats you want? Is there some rule somewhere that players shouldn't have the feats they want? Or that bonus feats are teh brokenzors?
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2008-08-27, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-08-27, 12:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-08-27, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Average Level
No DM in their right mind would allow this perfectly RAW and by the book option.
This amounts to:
The game made a mistake and now relies on all DM's, everywhere, to fix it, by collectively ignoring this one broken element.
Doesn't sound so hot in that context, though.
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2008-08-27, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Average Level
Well, Wizards themselves have said that they stuffed up. Why else would they write, on their own website, that some sections of the things they created for 3.5 were so bad that they should never be used and should be viewed as non-aggresion means, like a mutually assured destruction from nuclear weapons.
Also, note that the DMG does say that a DM is supposed to control the access that players have to everything outside of the PHB.
It's the same way that no-one should allow the War Hulk prestige class to be taken in epic advancements. There are some things that just shouldn't be. Chaos Shuffle is one of those.
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2008-08-27, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Average Level
I prefer to play around 1-4, it gets kind of manga-ish and gimmic-y after that, in my perspective. Which I feel ruins the mood.
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2008-08-27, 12:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: Average Level
Stolen from Bayar
My PC likes hamburgers but prefers cheeseburgers. Any LG Paladin should Wish for a CG Candle of Invocation to Summon a Noble Djinni or a Solar. Pazuzu probably amused at a lowly Paladin having a Demon Lord grant him a Wish to command a Solar to grant a Wish for something like Summoning a Noble Djinni for more wishes of questionable purposes. Gate spell doesn't cause creature to forget.
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2008-08-27, 01:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Average Level
I imagine Rei_Jin and others are primarily referring to the use of the spell to replace Elven racial feats. And I agree with him in that regard, with one minor modification.
No sane DM with any desire for a balanced game would allow the spells to be used in that way, because they allow a character at virtually no cost to exchange a thing of little value for something of much greater value in a way that was almost certainly not foreseen or intended by the original designer(s) of the spell, the feats, or the race.
Further, the build requires reducing penalties so far that they become bonuses (ie using metamagic adjustment feats). To the best of my knowledge, this is possible nowhere else in D&D and was IMO clearly not intended by the designer(s).
Enough said.
As to the OP's original question, I've never seen higher than level 12.Last edited by Colmarr; 2008-08-27 at 01:23 AM.
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2008-08-27, 07:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- London, England.
Re: Average Level
Actually, the last time I took a poll on it, it was 85%. The ratio was something like 40% levels 1-5, 45% levels 5-10, 13% levels 11-15, 2% levels 16-20. I've been wanting to do another poll, but they've been deactivated for a while now.
The 2% for levels 16-20 might have been an overestimate, btw.
If you're wondering why so few play at high levels, refer to the above discussion about stupidly broken Wizard builds. :P A better way to look at it is that level 11-15 IS high level. Level 11-15 is already a power level on par with the tougher members of X-Men, where you're untouchable by normal humans and can do just about anything. Level 16-20 is Phoenix/Xavier level, where you're a threat to the entire planet. Level 21+ is Galactus level, where you're a threat to the entire universe.
- SaphI'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!
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2008-08-27, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
Re: Average Level
I try to make it standard when posting builds to explain how the build plays at all levels (and to note what levels it sucks at). Some builds have a "schtick" that doesn't kick in until mid-to-high levels, and it's good to clarify what the minimum level is and what to do until then.
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2008-08-27, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- London, England.
Re: Average Level
The better character builders generally do this now. 1/5/10/15/20 is one of the standard templates. It's much more sensible than starting at level 20 and working backwards.
Personally, I think most builds work better if the designers assume the game will never go past level 10, and treat everything after that as a cool (but unlikely) bonus. After all, that's what usually happens.
- SaphI'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!
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2008-08-27, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Average Level
Common sense is not so common.
Nanfoodle the Maverick, Conjurer of expensive tricks
SpoilerOriginally Posted by I'm da Rogue!
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2008-08-27, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: Average Level
Last edited by CASTLEMIKE; 2008-08-27 at 08:18 AM.
Stolen from Bayar
My PC likes hamburgers but prefers cheeseburgers. Any LG Paladin should Wish for a CG Candle of Invocation to Summon a Noble Djinni or a Solar. Pazuzu probably amused at a lowly Paladin having a Demon Lord grant him a Wish to command a Solar to grant a Wish for something like Summoning a Noble Djinni for more wishes of questionable purposes. Gate spell doesn't cause creature to forget.
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2008-08-27, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- London, England
Re: Average Level
my party are currently between L11 &
L13L12 (my character was highest at L13 and he died). group has evolved a bit since we created the original party at L1 (only the druid is original)
well, we're playing Wound and vitality points, so anyone can die to a critical... except we tend to engineer towards immunity from crits (paladin has 42 wound points, druid is warshaper etc).
My sorcerer was immune to crits, he just took too much con damage and died anywayDoug
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