Average Level

[shadow_archmagi]

One thing i've noticed is that most builds go to 20, and don't usually explain where the power starts coming in.

Personally, I've never experienced a game at over 16, and that was a rare and short-lived experience. The majority of my time has been spent below ten.

Why do so many builds go to 20? What level do you guys play at? I've heard bad things about 20+, is it really that way?

[arguskos]

Builds go to 20 so you can see what your progression will look like IF the campaign continues that far. Since few do, it's not that useful, but on the off chance it happens, it's nice to have a plan.

At level 21 and up, yeah, the universe breaks. Epic Spellcasting really is that INSANE. Ask Tippy if you need proof.

I've played games at all levels of power in 3.5 (even a game where we used some of the Immortal's Handbook rules... that was freakin' crazy), and really, if everyone puts a little thought into their characters before the game starts, just enough to go, "I'm thinking about Dwarven Defender" (or whatever), it helps speed up leveling and whatnot. Planning builds ahead is useful, if you're into that anyway.

-argus

[CASTLEMIKE]

Personally, I've never experienced a game at over 16, and that was a rare and short-lived experience. The majority of my time has been spent below ten.

Why do so many builds go to 20? What level do you guys play at? I've heard bad things about 20+, is it really that way?

Half the games are supposedly around L10 and below. I find levels 2 - 7 to be the most fun in a quid pro quo game where a mistake or two doesn't normally kill you.

[Chronicled]

At level 21 and up, yeah, the universe breaks. Epic Spellcasting really is that INSANE. Ask Tippy if you need proof.

Actually, he's built a fully legal (it doesn't even need any sketchy ruleslawyering, unless you count Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos working on elf bonus feats, which is fully legal) nigh-indestructible/undetectable blaster wizard that can one-shot just about anything... at level 17 or 18.

But Epic Spellcasting really ramps up the insanity.

[arguskos]

Yeah, saw that.

However, I was talking about stuff like the damn Telekinetic Sphere around the whole world, and similar crap. I saw an Epic Spell someone around here made that could create an ENTIRE GALAXY in one round. There's nothing to say, except:

>_>
<_<
>_<

-argus

[_Puppetmaster_]

I have never gone over level four.

Most builds go to level 20 because a lot of the really, really cool/broken abilitities come at higher levels.

[Gorbash]

Games I've played in usually started at lvl 3 and ended around 8-9. Now for the first time in my life I'm playing a lvl 10 character with tendency toward greatness (lvl 20). And man is it more fun than lower lvls. The only reason I'll play in forthcoming Age of Worms AP beginning at lvl 1 is because I'm positive I'll reach lvl 20.

[Akimbo]

Games I've played in usually started at lvl 3 and ended around 8-9. Now for the first time in my life I'm playing a lvl 10 character with tendency toward greatness (lvl 20). And man is it more fun than lower lvls. The only reason I'll play in forthcoming Age of Worms AP beginning at lvl 1 is because I'm positive I'll reach lvl 20.

This is the most sensible thing I have ever seen typed anywhere. I invite you to the high level club, where we wish more people would play high level.

[Frosty]

Actually, he's built a fully legal (it doesn't even need any sketchy ruleslawyering, unless you count Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos working on elf bonus feats, which is fully legal) nigh-indestructible/undetectable blaster wizard that can one-shot just about anything... at level 17 or 18.

But Epic Spellcasting really ramps up the insanity.

I still haven't seen any DM allow it irl though.

[Mooch]

Actually, he's built a fully legal (it doesn't even need any sketchy ruleslawyering, unless you count Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos working on elf bonus feats, which is fully legal) nigh-indestructible/undetectable blaster wizard that can one-shot just about anything... at level 17 or 18.

But Epic Spellcasting really ramps up the insanity.

and where would a link to a build such as this be?

[mabriss lethe]

Depends on the style of play.

For me, the "Sweet Spot" has always been somewhere between level 8-12. You start being able to pull off a few bits of insanity when the need arises, but your characters are still risking their necks in any serious conflict.

In that range, you've got a lot of options, but not a whole lot of broken.


But sometimes it's just fun to play at the extreme ends of the spectrum.

(I still want to get my "commoner conscript" game off the ground but everyone looks at me in mild horror when I bring it up.)

[Colmarr]

and where would a link to a build such as this be?

I don't know the link, but I've seen the build.

It relies on:

1. A feat (from Fiendish Codex IIRC) that allows you to swap feats (Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos). Edit: It's a spell, not a feat.

2. Starting as an elf and using that feat to replace all the weapon proficiency feats that elves get with more useful caster feats (eg. swapping Weapon Proficiency (Longsword) for Quicken Spell, Twin Spell etc.)

3. Reading metamagic adjustment feats as allowing adjustment to -1 (eg. A metamagic feat that is normally +0 spell level becomes -1 spell level and thus allows you to add a +1 spell level metamagic for free (which is actually normally a +2 metamagic before the adjustment).

It's probably the best piece of one-eyed RAW I've ever seen for 3e and I admire the work that went into finding the loopholes. Would I ever allow it into my game as a DM, or play alongside it (or with it) as a player? Never. Ever.

[Akimbo]

I don't know the link, but I've seen the build.

It relies on:

1. A feat (from Fiendish Codex IIRC) that allows you to swap feats (Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos).

2. Starting as an elf and using that feat to replace all the weapon proficiency feats that elves get with more useful caster feats (eg. swapping Weapon Proficiency (Longsword) for Quicken Spell, Twin Spell etc.)

3. Reading metamagic adjustment feats as allowing adjustment to -1 (eg. A metamagic feat that is normally +0 spell level becomes -1 spell level and thus allows you to add a +1 spell level metamagic for free (which is actually normally a +2 metamagic before the adjustment).

It's probably the best piece of one-eyed RAW I've ever seen for 3e and I admire the work that went into finding the loopholes. Would I ever allow it into my game as a DM, or play alongside it (or with it) as a player? Never. Ever.

Um, sorry, it's all 2-eyed RAW with no loopholes, just a more intelligent use of things then was expected by the designers.

Secondly, it doesn't even really require all those things, since a basic Incantatrix 20 With Persist Spell is already invulnerable.

The rest is just gravy to give yourself a single spell that defeats 90% of enemies.

[Eldariel]

I love playing pre-Epic games (16-20), but with heavy houseruling to prevent Wizards from boning the reality in the rear too hard. And yea, obviously I don't allow Incantatrix without heavy houseruling (just as I don't allow Planar Shepherd without heavy houseruling). I like my campaign world, thank you very much, and I'd rather not have some errant Wizard rebuilding the universe on a whim.

The power is really appealing for the group - when all characters play on the same level, the combat can get really interesting with all the magic, countermagic (Battlemagic Perception and Duelward are musts on those levels - also, Ring of Counterspells in all its incarnations and so on) and contingencies - much like a strategy game of depleting opponent's resources and finding the least deflectable course of attack. Of course, this is the "high-level casters play Rocket Launcher Tag and nobody else gets to play"-thing.

[Rei_Jin]

Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos are both spells, level 8 for either a Cleric or a Sorceror/Wizard, with a 250xp component to cast, and no DM in their right mind would allow a character to exploit them in the manner that is suggested. Whilst it might be fine under RAW, that's why a DM is supposed to control what a player can and cannot do. Some things are just exploits and should be viewed as such.

That being said, the morality of a character that is willing to cast Embrace the Dark Chaos, or one who is willing to be the recipient of it, is severely in question, and in fact should result in alignment shift to chaotic (if they weren't already) due to the result of casting said spell. And whilst the text specifically says that they aren't evil in nature (the abyssal heritor feats) it's not a stretch of the imagination to see that such a character would gain the attention of the abyss, quite possibly to their detriment.

[FMArthur]

You have to play with other people who know what they're doing, in levels above 10, or it's just ridiculous how much of a power disparity there can be between players. Having played a campaign that went from 3 to 16 in a party with a good player, a mediocre player, and two clueless ones, it is not fun to see them struggle. Wasn't even a caster/non-caster split; some people just haven't learned enough about the game to play it effectively. This becomes more and more apparent as character options become availible and planned growth begins to come to fruition.

[Akimbo]

Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos are both spells, level 8 for either a Cleric or a Sorceror/Wizard, with a 250xp component to cast, and no DM in their right mind would allow a character to exploit them in the manner that is suggested. Whilst it might be fine under RAW, that's why a DM is supposed to control what a player can and cannot do. Some things are just exploits and should be viewed as such.

That being said, the morality of a character that is willing to cast Embrace the Dark Chaos, or one who is willing to be the recipient of it, is severely in question, and in fact should result in alignment shift to chaotic (if they weren't already) due to the result of casting said spell. And whilst the text specifically says that they aren't evil in nature (the abyssal heritor feats) it's not a stretch of the imagination to see that such a character would gain the attention of the abyss, quite possibly to their detriment.

1) Oh noes, they are chaotic. Or just neutral and willing to do anything to accomplish their goals.

2) Oh noes, they have the Abysses attention, to their detriment. How is this different from all the other PCs ever played who all have to fight things? It's actually more useful then not, because it allows you to pick who you fight, and I'd prefer it be Pit Fiends to Balors or Solars.

3) I'm sorry, why would no good DM ever allow you to use such a technique to get the feats you want? Is there some rule somewhere that players shouldn't have the feats they want? Or that bonus feats are teh brokenzors?

[Rei_Jin]

I'll take that as a flamebait, and an attempt to incite me.

That being said, if you disagree with me, that's fine. You are welcome to, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it in such a condescending manner.

[Akimbo]

I'll take that as a flamebait, and an attempt to incite me.

That being said, if you disagree with me, that's fine. You are welcome to, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it in such a condescending manner.

Well then I'll take your post as flamebait, since that's apparently the new thing to do. Just get offended and ignore everything that's said.

[Talic]

No DM in their right mind would allow this perfectly RAW and by the book option.

This amounts to:

The game made a mistake and now relies on all DM's, everywhere, to fix it, by collectively ignoring this one broken element.

Doesn't sound so hot in that context, though.

[Rei_Jin]

Well, Wizards themselves have said that they stuffed up. Why else would they write, on their own website, that some sections of the things they created for 3.5 were so bad that they should never be used and should be viewed as non-aggresion means, like a mutually assured destruction from nuclear weapons.

Also, note that the DMG does say that a DM is supposed to control the access that players have to everything outside of the PHB.

It's the same way that no-one should allow the War Hulk prestige class to be taken in epic advancements. There are some things that just shouldn't be. Chaos Shuffle is one of those.

[Mastikator]

I prefer to play around 1-4, it gets kind of manga-ish and gimmic-y after that, in my perspective. Which I feel ruins the mood.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Well, Wizards themselves have said that they stuffed up. Why else would they write, on their own website, that some sections of the things they created for 3.5 were so bad that they should never be used and should be viewed as non-aggresion means, like a mutually assured destruction from nuclear weapons.

Also, note that the DMG does say that a DM is supposed to control the access that players have to everything outside of the PHB.

It's the same way that no-one should allow the War Hulk prestige class to be taken in epic advancements. There are some things that just shouldn't be. Chaos Shuffle is one of those.

That's why I dislike the high level uber games in a quid pro quo game one mistake and you are toast.

[Colmarr]

3) I'm sorry, why would no good DM ever allow you to use such a technique to get the feats you want?

I imagine Rei_Jin and others are primarily referring to the use of the spell to replace Elven racial feats. And I agree with him in that regard, with one minor modification.

No sane DM with any desire for a balanced game would allow the spells to be used in that way, because they allow a character at virtually no cost to exchange a thing of little value for something of much greater value in a way that was almost certainly not foreseen or intended by the original designer(s) of the spell, the feats, or the race.

Further, the build requires reducing penalties so far that they become bonuses (ie using metamagic adjustment feats). To the best of my knowledge, this is possible nowhere else in D&D and was IMO clearly not intended by the designer(s).

Enough said.

As to the OP's original question, I've never seen higher than level 12.

[Saph]

Half the games are supposedly around L10 and below. I find levels 2 - 7 to be the most fun in a quid pro quo game where a mistake or two doesn't normally kill you.

Actually, the last time I took a poll on it, it was 85%. The ratio was something like 40% levels 1-5, 45% levels 5-10, 13% levels 11-15, 2% levels 16-20. I've been wanting to do another poll, but they've been deactivated for a while now.

The 2% for levels 16-20 might have been an overestimate, btw.

If you're wondering why so few play at high levels, refer to the above discussion about stupidly broken Wizard builds. :P A better way to look at it is that level 11-15 IS high level. Level 11-15 is already a power level on par with the tougher members of X-Men, where you're untouchable by normal humans and can do just about anything. Level 16-20 is Phoenix/Xavier level, where you're a threat to the entire planet. Level 21+ is Galactus level, where you're a threat to the entire universe.

- Saph

[Pyroconstruct]

I try to make it standard when posting builds to explain how the build plays at all levels (and to note what levels it sucks at). Some builds have a "schtick" that doesn't kick in until mid-to-high levels, and it's good to clarify what the minimum level is and what to do until then.

[Saph]

I try to make it standard when posting builds to explain how the build plays at all levels (and to note what levels it sucks at). Some builds have a "schtick" that doesn't kick in until mid-to-high levels, and it's good to clarify what the minimum level is and what to do until then.

The better character builders generally do this now. 1/5/10/15/20 is one of the standard templates. It's much more sensible than starting at level 20 and working backwards.

Personally, I think most builds work better if the designers assume the game will never go past level 10, and treat everything after that as a cool (but unlikely) bonus. After all, that's what usually happens.

- Saph

[Gorbash]

I prefer to play around 1-4, it gets kind of manga-ish and gimmic-y after that, in my perspective. Which I feel ruins the mood.

For me it ruins the mood when I get killed by a lucky critical and there's nothing I can do about it.

[CASTLEMIKE]

For me it ruins the mood when I get killed by a lucky critical and there's nothing I can do about it.

Just need the +0 LA Soul Locked template from Heroes of Horror

[only1doug]

my party are currently between L11 &L13 L12 (my character was highest at L13 and he died). group has evolved a bit since we created the original party at L1 (only the druid is original)

For me it ruins the mood when I get killed by a lucky critical and there's nothing I can do about it.

well, we're playing Wound and vitality points, so anyone can die to a critical... except we tend to engineer towards immunity from crits (paladin has 42 wound points, druid is warshaper etc).

My sorcerer was immune to crits, he just took too much con damage and died anyway