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    Default [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    This post comes as a result of a Gaming section advice request. Poison has never been a very good strategy for PCs. It's expensive to find, difficult to harvest, time-consuming to make, and fails more often than not. So much so, that it seems incredible that anyone would have been able to take the time to find and apply the vast amounts of poison found on many traps and assassin's weapons. To that end, I've made a little poison of my own that will warm the heart of rogues, assassins, herbalists, and savage tribes everywhere. Any comments would be welcome.

    First, a minor rule change. Previously, you could harvest 1gp*your survival check worth of poison from a poisonous creature. This is simply too little poison. It makes sense that you could harvest more potent (and thus more valuable) poison from a more powerful creature of equal size; it also makes sense that a larger creature will have more poison to be harvested than a smaller creature. So, the new rule is: you can harvest 1gp*the creature's HD*survival check*the poison size modifier worth of poison from a defeated creature with the Poison ability. If harvesting poison from a plant, the amount of poison is 1gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Nature check), if you are in an environment appropriate to the plant's growth. If harvesting a mineral poison (such as arsenic), the amount of poison is 1gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Geography check).

    The poison size modifier is:
    Spoiler
    Show
    {table]Creature Size | Multiplier
    Fine | 1/5
    Diminutive | 1/4
    Tiny | 1/3
    Small | 1/2
    Medium | 1
    Large | 2
    Huge | 3
    Gargantuan | 4
    Colossal | 5
    [/table]


    Now, for the feats.

    Brew Poison
    Prerequisites: Craft (Poison) 5 ranks.
    Benefit: You may produce poisons at an increased rate. Brewing a poison takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the cost of the poison. The character must provide the raw materials for the poison, as well as 1/25 of the cost in XP.
    Normal: You can craft poisons at the rate of 10 silver * Craft check per week. No XP is expended.

    Expert Poisoner
    Prerequisites: Brew Poison feat, Craft (Poison) 15 ranks
    Benefits: The poisons you create using the Brew Poison feats become more potent. Upon making a poison using the Brew Poison feat, you can increase the DC of your poison by making a Craft (Poison) check.
    Spoiler
    Show
    {table]Craft Check| Poison DC
    9-15 |+0
    16-20 |+1
    21-25 |+2
    26-30 |+4
    31-35 |+8
    [/table]


    You cannot take 10 or 20 on this craft check. The check does not apply to poisons created using the normal crafting rules.

    Poison Harvester
    Prerequisites: Survival 10 ranks
    Benefit: You are an expert at retrieving poison from defeated creatures. You can now harvest 10gp*the creature's HD*survival check*the poison size modifier worth of poison from a creature with the Poison ability. If harvesting poison from a plant, the amount of poison is 10gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Nature check). If harvesting a mineral poison, the amount of poison is 10gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Geography check).
    Normal: You can harvest 1gp*the creature's HD*survival check*the poison size modifier for animal-based poisons, 1gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Nature check) for plant-based poisons, or 1gp*(survival check + 1/2 Knowledge Geography check) for mineral poisons.

    Supreme Poisoner
    Prerequisites: Brew Poison, Expert Poisoner, Poison Harvester, Craft (Poison) 15 ranks
    Benefit: It no longer costs XP to create a poison using the Brew Poison feat.

    Lastly, the PrC.
    Venomsmith

    Hit Die: d6

    Prerequisites
    Skills: Craft (Poison) 8 ranks
    Feats: Brew Poison, Skill Focus: Craft (Poison)

    Table: The Venomsmith
    {table]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
    1 | +0 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Poison Use
    2 | +1 | +3 | +3 | +0 | Great Fortitude, Second Classic Blunder
    3 | +2 | +3 | +3 | +1 | Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +1d6
    4 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Poison Harvester, Never Saw it Coming
    5 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Second Favored Poison
    6 | +4 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Expert Poisoner, Sneak Attack +2d6
    7 | +5 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Third Favored Poison, Poisonous Glare
    8 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +2 | Supreme Poisoner, Evade Suspicion
    9 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +3 | Fourth Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +3d6
    10 | +7 | +7 | +7 | +3 | Venomblood
    [/table]

    Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Craft (Poison), Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Tumble, Use Rope

    Skill points each level: 6 + Int modifier

    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    The Venomsmith gains proficiency with the shuriken, rapier, punching dagger, and all bows and crossbows. The Venomsmith gains no armor proficiency.

    Poison Use: Venomsmiths never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

    Great Fortitude: Venomsmiths gain the Great Fortitude feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

    Second Classic Blunder: Venomsmiths gain a bonus equal to their Venomsmith level when using the sleight of hand skill to add poison to a drink, switch out a poisoned glass; a Bluff check intended to get the characters to look the other way while he applies poison to something; or any other such check deemed appropriate by the DM.

    Favored Poison: At third level, the Venomsmith gains a Favored Poison. The Venomsmith becomes immune to the selected poison. The Venomsmith applies his Venomsmith level to all survival checks used for gathering that particular poison. Poisons made using the favored poison have their save DCs increased by 2. The Venomsmith gains a +2 bonus damage to any successful melee, ranged, or thrown weapon attacks made against the source of the Favored Poison, if the source is a creature. (For example, if the Venomsmith’s Favored Poison is Wyvern Poison, the Venomsmith gains 2 damage to successful attacks versus a Wyvern). At fifth level and every second level thereafter, may select an additional favored poison. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus damage and DC increase for any one favored poison (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2.

    Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every third level (3rd, 6th, and 9th). If a Venomsmith gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

    Poison Harvester: At 4th level, the Venomsmith gains the benefits of the Poison Harvester feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

    Never Saw it Coming: At 4th level, the Venomsmith is an expert at hit-and-run poison tactics. This ability is identical to the Mosquito’s Bite skill trick, except that the amount of rounds between the blow and the target realizing it is hit, is equal to the Venomsmith level. (A Venomsmith may choose to reduce this time if desired, at no penalty).

    Expert Poisoner: At 6th level, the Venomsmith gains the Expert Poisoner feat.

    Poisonous Glare: At 7th level, the Venomsmith may cast the Poison spell as a spell-like ability, as though affected by the Still and Silent spells, cast at the Venomsmith level. The Venomsmith makes a Ranged Touch attack instead of a Touch attack to deliver the spell. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the Venomsmith’s level. The Venomsmith must have line of sight to the target for this ability to be effective.

    Supreme Poisoner: At 8th level, the Venomsmith gains the Supreme Poisoner feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

    Evade Suspicion: At 8th level, the Venomsmith is treated as though under a continuous Undetectable Alignment spell (Caster Level = Character Level). Any attempt to detect the thoughts of the Venomsmith (such as the Detect Thoughts spell, the Read Thoughts and Mind Probe psionic powers, a Medallion of Thoughts, a Helm of Telepathy, or similar spells, powers, or items) automatically fails.

    Venomblood: At 10th level, the Venomsmith has achieved a mastery of the poisoning arts to such a degree that his very blood becomes poison. He gains immunity to all poisons, magical and mundane, and may secrete a dose of any non-epic poison (except Venomblood, described below), at no cost in gold, materials, or XP. This ability takes a full-round action to accomplish, and is usable ten times per day. However, this ability does come at a cost. A Detect Poison spell will now detect the Venomsmith. The Venomsmith may be targeted with a Delay Poison spell, which now acts as a Slow spell. A Heal spell will act as a Harm spell if cast on a Venomsmith. The Purify Food and Drink spell has no effect on a living Venomsmith. The Venomblood ability does not pose a danger to any creature using a bite, claw, or other natural attack. However, any creature that tries to consume the Venomsmith (standard eating, using the Swallow Whole ability, using the Blood Drain special attack, etc.) must make a Fortitude check equal to the Venomsmith's HD + 20. If the check succeeds, the creature takes 1 point of damage per Hit Die of the Venomsmith. If the check fails, the creature is affected by Venomblood Poison (effects equivalent to a combination of Lich Dust, Ungol Dust, Insanity Mist, Black Lotus Extract, Terinav Root, and Id Moss, in addition to Nauseating the foe). A Purify Food and Drink spell cast on the dead body of a Venomsmith renders this poison ineffective.

    Table: Venomblood Poison
    {table] Initial Damage | Secondary Damage
    2d6 Str, 3d6 Con, 1d6 Dex, 1d4 Int, 1d4 Wis, 1 Cha, Nauseated | 1d6 Str, 3d6 Con, 2d6 Dex, 2d6 Int, 2d6 Wis, 1d6+1 Cha, Nauseated for 2d10 minutes[/table]
    Last edited by Telonius; 2008-09-10 at 08:09 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats

    I like this a lot. There are a lot of poison-using builds that I've wanted to make but abandoned because they just weren't viable; this fixes that. Good job!

    @V: I'm not sure I'd include that. Usually, larger creatures have more HD anyway.
    Last edited by SurlySeraph; 2008-08-28 at 01:21 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats

    Thanks! What do you think about the size modifier on poison harvesting, should that be added? I'm considering *1/5 for Fine, *1/4 for diminutive, *1/3 for tiny, *1/2 for small, *1 for medium, *2 for large, *3 for huge, *4 for gargantuan, and *5 for colossal.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats

    seems pretty cool, and the size mods make sense.

    for synergistic purposes, check out my venom feats, which are usable by both naturally venomous and alchemically venomous creatures.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65399

    i agree 100% that poison has been tossed aside as a facet of the game that is unworthy of general investment, simply because it was stuck with crappy mechanics to begin with.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats

    I concur, I've always had a soft spot for poisons but they're just not a consistent way of bringing things down. It makes me wonder why they even bother giving monsters immunity to it. These are very nice.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats

    Updated to add the size modifier and explanation.

    Thanks for the link, Stycotl! Yes, these would synergize pretty well with those venom rules. I wonder if there's a general formula to figure out how expensive a given poison should cost? That would really be the bridge between our two homebrews.
    Last edited by Telonius; 2008-08-29 at 08:23 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats

    the best part of this, besides the ability to make the poisons on par with potions is the fact that you can make them more powerful with higher DCs
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats

    Thanks, Nhbdy!
    Here's a PrC to go with the feats. Also, edited the first post to account for plant-based poisons.

    (PrC moved to the first post)

    Spoiler
    Show
    Venomsmith

    Hit Die: d6

    Prerequisites
    Skills: Craft (Poison) 8 ranks
    Feats: Brew Poison, Skill Focus: Craft (Poison)

    Table: The Venomsmith
    {table]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
    1 | +0 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Poison Use
    2 | +1 | +3 | +3 | +0 | Great Fortitude, Second Classic Blunder
    3 | +2 | +3 | +3 | +1 | Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +1d6
    4 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Poison Harvester, Never Saw it Coming
    5 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Second Favored Poison
    6 | +4 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Expert Poisoner, Sneak Attack +2d6
    7 | +5 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Third Favored Poison, Poisonous Glare
    8 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +2 | Supreme Poisoner, Evade Suspicion
    9 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +3 | Fourth Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +3d6
    10 | +7 | +7 | +7 | +3 | Venomblood
    [/table]

    Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Craft (Poison), Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Tumble, Use Rope

    Skill points each level: 6 + Int modifier

    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    The Venomsmith gains proficiency with the shuriken, rapier, punching dagger, and all bows and crossbows. The Venomsmith gains no armor proficiency.

    Poison Use: Venomsmiths never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

    Great Fortitude: Venomsmiths gain the Great Fortitude feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

    Second Classic Blunder: Venomsmiths gain a bonus equal to their Venomsmith level when using the sleight of hand skill to add poison to a drink, switch out a poisoned glass; a Bluff check intended to get the characters to look the other way while he applies poison to something; or any other such check deemed appropriate by the DM.

    Favored Poison: At third level, the Venomsmith gains a Favored Poison. The Venomsmith becomes immune to the selected poison. The Venomsmith applies his Venomsmith level to all survival checks used for gathering that particular poison. Poisons made using the favored poison have their save DCs increased by 2. The Venomsmith gains a +2 bonus damage to any successful melee, ranged, or thrown weapon attacks made against the source of the Favored Poison, if the source is a creature. (For example, if the Venomsmith’s Favored Poison is Wyvern Poison, the Venomsmith gains 2 damage to successful attacks versus a Wyvern). At fifth level and every second level thereafter, may select an additional favored poison. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus damage and DC increase for any one favored poison (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2.

    Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every third level (3rd, 6th, and 9th). If a Venomsmith gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

    Poison Harvester: At 4th level, the Venomsmith gains the benefits of the Poison Harvester feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

    Never Saw it Coming: At 4th level, the Venomsmith is an expert at hit-and-run poison tactics. This ability is identical to the Mosquito’s Bite skill trick, except that the amount of rounds between the blow and the target realizing it is hit, is equal to the Venomsmith level. (A Venomsmith may choose to reduce this time if desired, at no penalty).

    Expert Poisoner: At 6th level, the Venomsmith gains the Expert Poisoner feat.

    Poisonous Glare: At 7th level, the Venomsmith may cast the Poison spell as a spell-like ability, as though affected by the Still and Silent spells, cast at the Venomsmith level. The Venomsmith makes a Ranged Touch attack instead of a Touch attack to deliver the spell. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the Venomsmith’s level. The Venomsmith must have line of sight to the target for this ability to be effective.

    Supreme Poisoner: At 8th level, the Venomsmith gains the Supreme Poisoner feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

    Evade Suspicion: At 8th level, the Venomsmith is treated as though under a continuous Undetectable Alignment spell (Caster Level = Character Level). Any attempt to detect the thoughts of the Venomsmith (such as the Detect Thoughts spell, the Read Thoughts and Mind Probe psionic powers, a Medallion of Thoughts, a Helm of Telepathy, or similar spells, powers, or items) automatically fails.

    Venomblood: At 10th level, the Venomsmith has achieved a mastery of the poisoning arts to such a degree that his very blood becomes poison. He gains immunity to all poisons, magical and mundane, and may secrete a dose of any non-epic poison (except Venomblood, described below), at no cost in gold, materials, or XP. This ability takes a full-round action to accomplish, and is usable ten times per day. However, this ability does come at a cost. A Detect Poison spell will now detect the Venomsmith. The Venomsmith may be targeted with a Delay Poison spell, which now acts as a Slow spell. A Heal spell will act as a Harm spell if cast on a Venomsmith. The Purify Food and Drink spell has no effect on a living Venomsmith. The Venomblood ability does not pose a danger to any creature using a bite, claw, or other natural attack. However, any creature that tries to consume the Venomsmith (standard eating, using the Swallow Whole ability, using the Blood Drain special attack, etc.) must make a Fortitude check equal to the Venomsmith's HD + 20. If the check succeeds, the creature takes 1 point of damage per Hit Die of the Venomsmith. If the check fails, the creature is affected by Venomblood Poison (effects equivalent to a combination of Lich Dust, Ungol Dust, Insanity Mist, Black Lotus Extract, Terinav Root, and Id Moss, in addition to Nauseating the foe). A Purify Food and Drink spell cast on the dead body of a Venomsmith renders this poison ineffective.

    Table: Venomblood Poison
    {table] Initial Damage | Secondary Damage
    2d6 Str, 3d6 Con, 1d6 Dex, 1d4 Int, 1d4 Wis, 1 Cha, Nauseated | 1d6 Str, 3d6 Con, 2d6 Dex, 2d6 Int, 2d6 Wis, 1d6+1 Cha, Nauseated for 2d10 minutes[/table]
    Last edited by Telonius; 2008-09-10 at 08:06 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    I'm just going to say right now that this is really cool. I've often thought of remaking the crappy poison rules myself, but never really gotten started.

    One thing, mind blank is a very powerful ability, not even the gods can use mind affecting abilities on you (let alone find you). I believe nondetection is a lower level alternative for blocking thought reading.

    Also, the spell Poison is a touch spell.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Thanks, Nhbdy!
    Here's a PrC to go with the feats. Also, edited the first post to account for plant-based poisons.

    Venomsmith

    Hit Die: d6

    Prerequisites
    Alignment: Any Nongood
    Skills: Craft (Poison) 8 ranks
    Feats: Great Fortitude, Skill Focus: Craft (Poison)

    Table: The Venomsmith
    {table]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
    1 | +0 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Poison Use
    2 | +1 | +3 | +3 | +0 | Brew Poison, Second Classic Blunder
    3 | +2 | +3 | +3 | +1 | Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +1d6
    4 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Poison Harvester, Never Saw it Coming
    5 | +3 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Second Favored Poison
    6 | +4 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Expert Poisoner, Sneak Attack +2d6
    7 | +5 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Third Favored Poison, Poisonous Glare
    8 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +2 | Supreme Poisoner, Evade Suspicion
    9 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +3 | Fourth Favored Poison, Sneak Attack +3d6
    10 | +7 | +7 | +7 | +3 | Venomblood
    [/table]

    Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Craft (Poison), Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Tumble, Use Rope

    Skill points each level: 6 + Int modifier

    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    The Venomsmith gains proficiency with the shuriken, rapier, punching dagger, and all bows and crossbows. The Venomsmith gains no armor proficiency.

    Poison Use: Venomsmiths never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

    Brew Poison: Venomsmiths gain the Brew Poison feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

    Second Classic Blunder: Venomsmiths gain a bonus equal to their Venomsmith level when using the sleight of hand skill to add poison to a drink, switch out a poisoned glass; a Bluff check intended to get the characters to look the other way while he applies poison to something; or any other such check deemed appropriate by the DM.

    Favored Poison: At third level, the Venomsmith gains a Favored Poison. The Venomsmith becomes immune to the selected poison. The Venomsmith applies his Venomsmith level to all survival checks used for gathering that particular poison. Poisons made using the favored poison have their save DCs increased by 2. The Venomsmith gains a +2 bonus damage to any successful melee, ranged, or thrown weapon attacks made against the source of the Favored Poison, if the source is a creature. (For example, if the Venomsmith’s Favored Poison is Wyvern Poison, the Venomsmith gains 2 damage to successful attacks versus a Wyvern). At fifth level and every second level thereafter, may select an additional favored poison. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus damage and DC increase for any one favored poison (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2.

    Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every third level (3rd, 6th, and 9th). If a Venomsmith gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

    Poison Harvester: At 4th level, the Venomsmith gains the benefits of the Poison Harvester feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

    Never Saw it Coming: At 4th level, the Venomsmith is an expert at hit-and-run poison tactics. This ability is identical to the Mosquito’s Bite skill trick, except that the amount of rounds between the blow and the target realizing it is hit, is equal to the Venomsmith level. (A Venomsmith may choose to reduce this time if desired, at no penalty).

    Expert Poisoner: At 6th level, the Venomsmith gains the Expert Poisoner feat.

    Poisonous Glare: At 7th level, the Venomsmith may cast the Poison spell as a spell-like ability, as though affected by the Still and Silent spells, cast at the Venomsmith level. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the Venomsmith’s level. The Venomsmith must have line of sight to the target for this ability to be effective.

    Supreme Poisoner: At 8th level, the Venomsmith gains the Supreme Poisoner feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

    Evade Suspicion: At 8th level, the Venomsmith is treated as though under a continuous Mind Blank and Undetectable Alignment spell (Caster Level = Character Level).

    Venomblood: At 10th level, the Venomsmith has achieved a mastery of the poisoning arts to such a degree that his very blood becomes poison. He gains immunity to all poisons, magical and mundane, and may secrete a dose of any poison, at no cost in gold, materials, or XP. This ability takes a full-round action to accomplish, and is usable ten times per day. However, this ability does come at a cost. A Detect Poison spell will now detect the Venomsmith. The Venomsmith may be targeted with a Delay Poison spell, which now acts as a Slow spell. A Heal spell will act as a Harm spell if cast on a Venomsmith.
    Why only nongood? i could see a good person undercover using this class to kill an evil overlord. just like assassin was strange with alignment, why couldn't one be good? this seems like an unnessissary restriction.
    Avatar by Teutonic Knight


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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    Hm, thinking about it, it is technically possible for a person to be a Venomsmith and only use poisons that knock someone unconscious. You could be Exalted and use the class that way, if you really wanted to. I also thought Poison was an [evil] spell, but looking it up it turns out it's only Necromancy. So, alignment restrictions will go, and the characters will be judged based on how they use the poison.

    I'll add in a bit about a ranged touch attack for the Poison Glare ability.

    Mind Blank is a pretty powerful one, I'll agree ... Nondetection really wasn't what I'm going for either. But I've made some text changes, hopefully that will be better.

    Also made one more change to the original post, to account for mineral poisons. (Stupid arsenic, having to be in the poison list. )
    Last edited by Telonius; 2008-08-29 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    One thing I have to ask, what is the first classical blunder?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    I definitely like this PrC. A lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norr View Post
    One thing I have to ask, what is the first classical blunder?
    Never get involved in a land war in Asia.
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    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    If his blood becomes poison at level 10, what happens if someone swallows him whole or uses a bite attack against him?

    Also, very cool.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    If his blood becomes poison at level 10, what happens if someone swallows him whole or uses a bite attack against him?

    Also, very cool.
    Thanks! A very good question, I hadn't considered that. I don't think it ought to deal damage to anything with a bite attack, but I'm not sure about Swallow Whole. If the character is still conscious, I suppose he could secrete an ingestion poison. But if it gets swallowed whole and dies ...? Might have to make up a poison DC for that.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    Well, since he's liable to have about two gallons of varying poisons in him (very many doses) I think the result of trying to digest him would be very very messy, agonizing and painful. I think the whole point of being a 10th level venomsmith is dressing up like a Poison dart frog and telling random people you taste terminally bad.

    The DC could be ½ his character level + CON bonus + 8 from Favored Poison.
    The effect... we could have some real fun with this...
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    Updated to show the poison. I think the DC should be a bit higher than that, since the things that have Swallow Whole tend to have really, really good Fort saves. I've combined some of the nastiest poisons in Core for it.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    OK, this is simply awesomesauce. I like it a LOT. *starts thinking up applications amongst his characters...*

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    The class is pretty cool. It seems balanced, and a lot of fun, with one exception. Venomblood is too good. Free, unlimited poison is not good, especially when the poison can be anything at all (consider that there exist epic poisons of devastating power... devastation scorpion poison, anyone? That's got a save DC of 85, FYI). I suggest you limit this ability to a certain number of doses per day (say 1/day, 2/day, or 1/hour, or something like that), and also limit the value of each dose created. Perhaps have a high cap, but there should be a cap of some kind.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by MythMage View Post
    The class is pretty cool. It seems balanced, and a lot of fun, with one exception. Venomblood is too good. Free, unlimited poison is not good, especially when the poison can be anything at all (consider that there exist epic poisons of devastating power... devastation scorpion poison, anyone? That's got a save DC of 85, FYI). I suggest you limit this ability to a certain number of doses per day (say 1/day, 2/day, or 1/hour, or something like that), and also limit the value of each dose created. Perhaps have a high cap, but there should be a cap of some kind.
    Actually, there is a limit at 10 doses per day. I do think a limiter is a good idea, due to the aforemetnioned epic poisons.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Norr View Post
    One thing I have to ask, what is the first classical blunder?
    that class skill Second Classic Blunder is an allusion to The Princess Bride, a fantastic book, and a spectacular movie. i heartily recommend that you see the movie. the Blunders in question come from what is probably the most famous scene from the movie. i won't ruin it for you, so i'll have to take the quote out of context (GO SEE THE MOVIE!!!).

    Vizzini: You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    Ah, yes. I remember that line now. That movie is a classic.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellus View Post
    If his blood becomes poison at level 10, what happens if someone swallows him whole or uses a bite attack against him?

    Also, very cool.
    What about any monster with the drain blood ability?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    The Blood Drain attack would be another way of being poisoned by it. Vampires (for example) wouldn't need to worry, since as undead they're immune to poison.

    Unfortunately I really don't know very much about Epic. Would putting a limit on Venomblood to Non-Epic poison be sufficient to prevent that? Allowing Epic Poison could be a part of Epic Progression for the PrC, but again, I don't know nearly enough about it to attempt it.
    Last edited by Telonius; 2008-09-09 at 10:27 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    I'm really glad someone figured out a way to make poison work in the existing system. It's been tried before, but I've never seen it done this good.

    Another variant rule I thought I should mention is that if someone combines two doses of poison, the can instead have it could as a single dose, with a +2 to the DC.

    The only criticism I have is that it seems that some of the poison feats granted by the prestige class, the player would have wanted to get earlier, so they either use their feat on something else and wait or waste the bonus feat. Perhaps a more general bonus feat list that includes the venom feats that were linked Sty Stycotl and a couple of stealth/assassin feats. Also perhaps something that allows poison to effect creatures normally immune to poison, albeit at a penalty.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    I support what you are trying to do here, but I am not sure about the idea of spending XPs for a faster working rate, especially spending a feat to do so.

    PS This thread has inspired me to post a interesting application poison I made up a long while back here. Technically I posted it in some other thread a long while back, but the variations and in-depth analysis are new, and giving it its own thread helps.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2008-09-09 at 01:26 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    I'm imagining this class mostly to be used by Rogues or Rangers, running from level 6-15. This is how it breaks down.

    {table]Feat|Minimum Level|Ven character gets it
    Brew Poison|3|7
    Expert Poisoner|6|12
    Poison Harvester|6|10
    Supreme Poisoner|12|14[/table]

    Would it make more sense if I made Brew Poison a prerequisite, and Great Fortitude a bonus feat at Ven2?

    For Expert Poisoner, I can see bumping up the requirements to 15 ranks (only available at 12th level and up). Poison Harvester could move up to 10 ranks of survival (available to 9th level characters and up). That would bring the venomsmith into much closer alignment with the progression. If somebody really wants to spend a three-feat chain on poisoning to get Supreme Poisoner by 12th, more power to 'em. They would have been better off taking the prestige class, but there's really nothing stopping them.

    I don't want to make it much easier for the Venomsmith character than that. I still want there to be some sort of a cost involved. For the Venomsmith, the cost is a feat you probably wouldn't have taken otherwise (skill focus) and a very slightly slower poison feat progression. (The benefit is that you can take three other feats that would have been eaten up by the poison feat tree, plus all of the assorted Venomsmith goodies).

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei
    I support what you are trying to do here, but I am not sure about the idea of spending XPs for a faster working rate, especially spending a feat to do so.
    The XP cost is modeled off of the Brew Potion feat. Brew Potion is arguably even stronger, since without that feat you can't make a potion at all.
    Last edited by Telonius; 2008-09-09 at 12:14 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    The XP cost is modeled off of the Brew Potion feat. Brew Potion is arguably even stronger, since without that feat you can't make a potion at all.
    I was saying that you could REMOVE the XP cost and it might STILL be balanced. I was saying it sounded underpowered, not overpowered.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Poison Feats and PrC

    Brew poison definitely seems like it should be a prerequisite.
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    Default [3.5] Snake-Blade [PEACH]

    Other Links of relevance (added Oct 2010):
    Custom Poison Creation:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158131
    Enhance Poison (spell):
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=151376

    Snake-Blade

    Many claim that only cowards use poisons. The Snake-Blade stands as living proof of the flaw in this assumption, standing shoulder to shoulder with other melee combatants.

    Hit Die: d10

    Prerequisites
    BAB: +6
    Base Fortitude Save: +5
    Skills: Craft (Poison) 4 ranks
    Feats: Poison Resistance, Great Fortitude

    Table: Snake-Blade
    {table]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
    1 | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | Injury Poison Use, Alchemical Know-how
    2 | +2 | +3 | +0 | +0 | Brew Poison, Deft Application
    3 | +3 | +3 | +1 | +1 | First Favored Poison, Shuriken Flurry
    4 | +4 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Poison Harvester, Rubbing Venom in the Wound
    5 | +5 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Second Favored Poison, Bonus Feat (Weapon Focus[Shuriken])
    6 | +6 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Expert Poisoner, Rapid Application (1/round)
    7 | +7 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Third Favored Poison, Rapid Shuriken
    8 | +8 | +6 | +2 | +2 | Supreme Poisoner, Bonus Feat (Greater Weapon Focus[Shuriken])
    9 | +9 | +6 | +3 | +3 | Fourth Favored Poison, Rapid Application (2/round)
    10 | +10| +7 | +3 | +3 | Injury Poison Immunity, Multi-Shuriken
    [/table]

    Class Skills: Concentration, Climb, Craft(Alchemy), Craft (Poison), Heal, Jump, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nature), Profession, Ride, Survival, Swim
    Skill points each level: 4 + Int modifier

    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    Snake-Blades gain proficiency with Shuriken. Snake-blades gains no armor or shield proficiency.

    Injury Poison Use: Snake-Blades never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying Injury poison to a weapon or weilding a poisoned weapon.

    Alchemical Know-how: Snake-Blades count as spell-casters for purposes of creating items with the Craft(Alchemy) skill.

    Brew Poison: Snake-Blades gain the Brew Poison feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

    Deft Application: At 2nd level a Snake-Blade is so practiced with re-envenoming his weapons that it doesn't make him any more vulnerable than any other action he undertakes with his weapon. The Snake-Blade no longer provokes attacks of opportunity for applying Injury type poisons to a slashing or piercing weapon and can use a light shield or two-handed weapon , without any loss of effectiveness while doing so. Once per round a Snake-Blade may apply poison to a weapon as part of a move action.

    Favored Poison: At third level, the Snake-blades gains a Favored Poison. This must be an Injury Poison. The Snake-blades becomes immune to the selected poison. The Snake-blades applies his Snake-blades level to all survival checks used for gathering that particular poison. Poisons made using the favored poison have their save DCs increased by 2. The Snake-blades gains a +2 bonus damage to any successful melee, ranged, or thrown weapon attacks made against the source of the Favored Poison, if the source is a creature. (For example, if the Snake-blades’s Favored Poison is Wyvern Poison, the Snake-blades gains 2 damage to successful attacks versus a Wyvern). At fifth level and every second level thereafter, may select an additional favored poison. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus damage and DC increase for any one favored poison (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2.

    Shuriken Flurry: At 3rd level a Snake-Blade may Flurry with Shuriken as a Monk of level equal to his BAB. Substitute the Monk's Flurry BAB for the Snake-Blades BAB for purposes of this attack. This may be done regardless of load, armor, or shield.
    Edit: For added convenience I have added a table. MIGHT go so far as to incorporate this as a seperate collumn of the main table.

    Poison Harvester: At 4th level, the Snake-Blade gains the benefits of the Poison Harvester feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

    Rubbing Venom in the wound: At 4th level, the Snake-Blade may attempt ranged touch attacks at a -10 penalty with vials containing 5 times the normal amount required of an injury poison against a target that has taken a total of at least 20 points of damage from slashing, peircing, acid, and/or fire since the last time it healed any. On a successful hit the Snake-Blade manages to hit an area that was previously injured and inflicts the effects of ONE dose of the poison on the target. This attack deals no direct hit-point damage and uses the range increments and proficiencies for splash weapons.

    Expert Poisoner: At 6th level, the Snake-Blade gains the Expert Poisoner feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

    Rapid Application: At 6th level a Snake-Blade may apply an Injury Poison to a weapon once per round as a free action (included between strikes of a full attack for instance). At 9th level this ability may be used twice per round.

    Rapid Shuriken: At 7th level, the Snake-Blade is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat when making a full attack with Shuriken.

    Supreme Poisoner: At 8th level, the Snake-Blade gains the Supreme Poisoner feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

    Poison Immunity: At 10th level, the Snake-Blade gains immunity to all mundane injury poisons with a DC of less than 27. Magical or Supernatural poisons can still affect him.

    Multi-Shuriken: At 10th level, the Snake-Blade may make attacks with Shurilken as if using the Multi-Shot feat with a bow.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2010-10-22 at 09:13 AM.
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