Soul Bow?

[Adumbration]

Soul bow, from Complete Psionics. I've been looking for a fun archer prestige class for a gestalt arena, level 15, and it would seem to fit the bill. Just a note - this arena does not allow casters, and the books are limited to Completes, Races, and Mastering (Stormwrack, etc.) books. And ToB.

Any suggestions for classes? What feats would be good? Is it worth it, in general? Thanks in advance!

[Eldariel]

I could write a day on the class. However, since I'll probably be competing on the same arena and since all the stuff exists in threads too, I'll just point you to the general direction of these threads:
Optimizing the Soulbow
The Ultimate Archer Handbook (check the Psionic Archery-section)

[Vexxation]

Okay, having not seen that before, and being a major Soulknife lover, THIS IS TOO NEAT!

Seriously, we've already got a character who can conjure up a shortsword/longsword/other weapon with feats, now we have an "archer" who just shoots bolts of mind-energy. Without a bow.

He's completely impossible to disarm. Heck, even tying him up won't help, because you just use a mind blade to cut free...

I'm pretty sure I found a feat at one point allowing you to Imbue Psychic Strike as a non-standard or move action... that would be good, to help your arrows pack a punch.

[RTGoodman]

I think the general consensus is that Soul Bows, like Soulknives, are a bit on the weak side, but depending on how optimized others are you might not have a problem. I had a Soul Bow in a Red Hand of Doom campaign that put out a lot of damage between his mind bow and psychic strike, though, so if you're just looking for that sort of thing it's pretty good, but not the best.

As far as suggestions, I can't really help much there, but it seems like getting a few Psionic feats can't hurt - you're not actually a caster, but you'll be able to use the feats thanks to your class, so that might give you a little boost.

[Tengu_temp]

Soulbow is what Warlock should be - a class that concentrates on shooting magical (well, psychic in this case) missiles all day. Except that Soulbow is actually good.

[Eldariel]

Soulbow is the only thing you can use to make Soulknife-levels worth your while. Any other character with Soulknife is automatically unplayable. However, a Soulbow is actually relatively competent - with Zen Archery, you can easily go Wisdom SAD as you get both, to hit and damage from Wis. A two-level Ranger-dip gets Rapid Shot without the feat. Then just take Wis to AC (from Swordsage, Monk, Ninja, etc.) and the "light armor max" limitation becomes no limitation whatsoever. So yea, a Soulbow is good as far as non-magical archers go. How far that is is up to you.

Oh yeah, ToB combines decently with Soulbow - Giant's Stance can arguably up the weapon size category (although since it requires being on the ground, a flying archer probably has better things to do like becoming Large for real), Mongoose-maneuvers provide extra attacks and ToB always offers solid defenses. Not straight ToB, but a slight dip for at least Dancing Mongoose and defenses is probably worth it, especially on an arena (stances are always useful) - gives you some melee if you feel like that too. Since Swordsage can get the Wis to AC (and allows you to wear an armor while at it), a 2-level Swordsage Dip sounds solid.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Soulbow is what Warlock should be - a class that concentrates on shooting magical (well, psychic in this case) missiles all day. Except that Soulbow is actually good.

The Warlock's not bad, especially if built well. They could have done with more ways to boost EB damage(I'm thinking Imp. Skirmish-style feat), more invocations, and better late-game damage-scaling, but it's not weak compared to a Rogues and the like, it's just not Batman.

[Vexxation]

However, a Soulbow is actually relatively competent - with Zen Archery, you can easily go Wisdom SAD as you get both, to hit and damage from Wis. A two-level Ranger-dip gets Rapid Shot without the feat. Then just take Wis to AC (from Swordsage, Monk, Ninja, etc.) and the "light armor max" limitation becomes no limitation whatsoever. So yea, a Soulbow is good as far as non-magical archers go. How far that is is up to you.

I'd say it would be a good idea to Gestalt it as a Swordsage 15 // Soulknife 2 / Monk 1 / Ranger 2 / Soulbow 10.

That nets Wisdom to AC twice (when unarmored, and really, if you pump your Wisdom, you'll be fine), free Rapid Shot, and plenty of maneuvers to help out when Mind Arrows aren't good enough. Take Zen Archery and you have Wis to hit and damage.

Heck, I'd throw in Vow of Poverty just to be silly about it. No items? No problem. No flight? Raptoran. Nice bonuses to AC, stats, etc. But you don't have BoED open, so oh well.

[Eldariel]

I'd say it would be a good idea to Gestalt it as a Swordsage 15 // Soulknife 2 / Monk 1 / Ranger 2 / Soulbow 10.

That nets Wisdom to AC twice (when unarmored, and really, if you pump your Wisdom, you'll be fine), free Rapid Shot, and plenty of maneuvers to help out when Mind Arrows aren't good enough. Take Zen Archery and you have Wis to hit and damage.

Heck, I'd throw in Vow of Poverty just to be silly about it. No items? No problem. No flight? Raptoran. Nice bonuses to AC, stats, etc. But you don't have BoED open, so oh well.

I'm fairly stacking the same stat to AC multiple times won't be allowed. Also, going for a bit higher BAB could very well be worth it. I think Swordsage 2-4 is all it takes. Along with that, actual classes that do stuff would be sweet - stat increases are good as are alternative attack forms (Cragtop Archer is on the allowed list). Also, anything with Precision Damage could be sweet (Scout comes to mind...).

[Vexxation]

I'm fairly stacking the same stat to AC multiple times won't be allowed. Also, going for a bit higher BAB could very well be worth it. I think Swordsage 2-4 is all it takes. Along with that, actual classes that do stuff would be sweet - stat increases are good as are alternative attack forms (Cragtop Archer is on the allowed list). Also, anything with Precision Damage could be sweet (Scout comes to mind...).

Well, I've heard tell that ninja and monk Wisdom-to-AC don't stack, but never actually saw any ruling. So scratch that idea. Just take Swordsage dip. And yes, Scout could make it interesting...

[Douglas]

Well, I've heard tell that ninja and monk Wisdom-to-AC don't stack, but never actually saw any ruling.

That one is specifically noted as not working in the Ninja class description. As for Monk and Swordsage, if you read the Swordsage AC bonus closely you'll notice that it only works in light armor - take off your armor and, by RAW, you lose the bonus. As you can't wear both light armor and no armor at the same time, you can't benefit from both Monk and Swordsage AC bonus at the same time.

[MammonAzrael]

The ninja AC bonus specifically states that it doesn't stack with the monk bonus, but I don't think there's anything preventing the Swordsage bonus from stacking.

And yeah, after a couple levels of swordsage I'd say go something with full BAB. And see if you can get the homebrewed Falling Star discipline allowed. archery-focused maneuvers are fun!

EDIT: Ninja'd. Also, apparently no they don't - http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=890611 (ctrl-F monk)

[Adumbration]

Thanks for all the help so far, keep it coming.

One thing, though. The Mind Arrow class feature states that the bolt is identical in all ways - except visually - to that of a bolt shot from a composite longbow. Does this mean you can also add your Strength modifier to the damage? If not, why specifically composite longbow?

The more I look at Soulbow, the better it appears to be. At level 10 the bolts are equivalent of +5 weapons, to say for one. For zero gold.

[Eldariel]

Composite Longbow has a higher range. "Composite Longbow with Strength matching the wielder" would be what you should look for if you wanted to read it allowing Str. You already get Wis which is more than any other Archer. The class is superb. Read the Optimization-link I gave you. It's definitely worth it. Also, consider Ranger 6; Fell Shot>Manyshot can bring the pain when you need to deal with immense ACs and Ranger 6 gives you Manyshot without actually having any Dex to speak of (perfect for Soulbow - with Zen Archery, you can actually dump Dex). Notice how you can get full 4 iteratives thanks to Soulbow's enhancement applying on top of your actual BAB for BAB-purposes; get at least 14 base BAB and your Soulbow BAB will be 16.

Also, dualprogressing Soulknife a bit for things such as enhancements could be worth it. This basically means 4-8 levels of Soulknife (no other number really makes sense) for either +1 or +2 enhancement on top of Soulbow's enhancement.

EDIT: Kensai could also be ok. X 5/Soulbow 7 (you get most of the good stuff that way - Phase Arrow is only one arrow so it isn't really all that good and the last levels aren't too important)/Kensai 3 would have +5 enhancements on the Mind Arrow and +3 enhancement (+1 Soulknife 4, +2 Soulbow).

[Person_Man]

Soulbow, like many archer builds, is on the shallow side of the power pool. But its certainly playable and can be fun. A few key things:

1) Does your DM allow you to fire Mind Arrows with a physical magic bow or composite bow? If so, this potentially adds a lot of damage output to the class. If not, could be quite limited.

2) How fond of DR is your DM? One of the huge benefits of archer builds is that you can carry a ton of ammo, each suited to a particular enemy. Soulbows give up this advantage. For example, my high level archer build will always carry +1 undead Bane Holy blunt arrows, +1 demon Bane Holy silver arrows, +1 demon Bane Holy cold iron arrows, +1 adamantine arrows, etc. The better you know your DM and the monsters you'll face in the campaign, the easier it is to prepare. But if your DM doesn't use DR very often, then its just a waste of money, and this isn't an issue. (You also won't be using the biggest archery abuse - Splitting Arrows - but I honestly don't know anyone who allows them anyway).

3) What supplements are allowed? Feats that come to mind that not every DM may allow - Zen Archery, Ancestral Weapon, Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Frightful Presence, Sand Dancer, Bind Vestage, Pierce Magical Concealment, Hidden Talent, Otherworldly, etc.

4) The broken workaround to up your power: Elan + Alter Self = ability to turn into any aberration up to 5 HD. Scour the monster manuals and splat books for some kind of abomination with a ton of attacks. Fire mind arrows with all of them.

[BobVosh]

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archi...x.php/t-439367
Ability score bonuses (magical enhancements added in)
Monk AC bonus (Wis to AC): +14
Saint AC bonus (insight equal to wisdom bonus): +14
Balance Domain (Wis to AC, 3 rounds): +14

Just a few stackable wisdom to ACs.

[Gorbash]

It's not that easy to become a saint, though.

[Eldariel]

Let's all take a moment, read the OP again and think for a moment:

"Just a note - this arena does not allow casters, and the books are limited to Completes, Races, and Mastering (Stormwrack, etc.) books. And ToB."


So a non-caster Arena-build (no monsters et al. - other PCs, and RAWish DMing). With SRD, Completes, Races, ToB, Stormwrack, Sandstorm and Frostburn. No BoED, no FR-specifics, no Cleric casting, no manifesting, etc.

[Knaight]

No expanded psionics handbook either, which pretty much screws the build up.

[Douglas]

SRD material is allowed, which includes the XPH.

[Knaight]

If we know its the SRD as opposed to the core 3, then it works. What about the psionic articles? Some of those might work.

[Zeful]

I'd play the Soul Bow but I don't think I'd ever get the character to be as awesome as this guy.

[Vexxation]

I'd play the Soul Bow but I don't think I'd ever get the character to be as awesome as this guy.

Dunno, this is a pretty sweet concept, even considering the lack of effort I put into this .gif...

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g1...os/Soulbow.gif

[Eldariel]

If we know its the SRD as opposed to the core 3, then it works. What about the psionic articles? Some of those might work.

Do you think he'd ask if he didn't? The source list is:
"SRD, Completes, Races of ___, Mastering ___ (e.g. Stormwrack), Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium"

I forgot to mention Magic Item Compendium last time, pardon me. But that's it - no online sources, no articles, etc. Just those books and SRD.

[Tengu_temp]

I'd play the Soul Bow but I don't think I'd ever get the character to be as awesome as this guy.

What you need is to max ranks in Craft (Sewing) and learn the Badly Pronounced German language.

[Knaight]

Do you think he'd ask if he didn't? The source list is:
"SRD, Completes, Races of ___, Mastering ___ (e.g. Stormwrack), Tome of Battle, Magic Item Compendium"

I forgot to mention Magic Item Compendium last time, pardon me. But that's it - no online sources, no articles, etc. Just those books and SRD.

Most of this wasn't mentioned in the opening post. That said, magic item compendium should change everything.

[Adumbration]

Most of this wasn't mentioned in the opening post. That said, magic item compendium should change everything.

... If I had it, that is. Anyway, Eldariel's list of books allowed is correct. He plays on the same arena.

Any suggestions for high-Wis races? I'm drawing blank, myself.

[Vexxation]

Any suggestions for high-Wis races? I'm drawing blank, myself.

As always, Dragonwrought Kobold stands as a way to get +3 Int, Wis, and Cha with no LA or penalties, as well as flight, for a burn of two feats.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

... If I had it, that is. Anyway, Eldariel's list of books allowed is correct. He plays on the same arena.

Any suggestions for high-Wis races? I'm drawing blank, myself.

Jermaline, MMII. +6 Wis, -2 Con, -8(IIRC) Str, a few other stat adjustments. It's a tiny, ugly, fey with a bad attitude, and makes a great Druid. Not sure how it interacts with your concept, though.

[Adumbration]

Jermaline, MMII. +6 Wis, -2 Con, -8(IIRC) Str, a few other stat adjustments. It's a tiny, ugly, fey with a bad attitude, and makes a great Druid. Not sure how it interacts with your concept, though.

That would be a perfect choice for me, if MMII was allowed. Alas, I must satisfy myself with an Old Aasimar. Now I have to figure out what to do with the excellent mental ability scores, besides Wisdom. (Which is 30 at this point.)