[4e] What were the playtesters smoking when they tried out this thing?

[Saph]

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. How on earth did these monsters get through playtesting?

I've just finished DMing a 4e session (more details here). I'd thought that Fire Beetles were bad for level 1 monsters, but that was before today. Ladies and gentlemen, the contest for 'worst low-level monster' is now officially over. I give you our winner; the Needlefang Drake Swarm.

To illustrate just how ridiculous this monster is, we will use an average 2nd-level PC as a guinea pig. Give this poor doomed soul a round of applause, please. To fully appreciate the outrageousness of what you are about to see, I'll ask you to put yourself in this 2nd-level PC's place. Don't worry, it'll be brief.


The Sad, Sad Story

We raise the curtains on a combat between you and a Needlfang Drake Swarm. The Needlefang Drake Swarm begins its turn next to your character. How it got next to you I'll leave it to you to determine. Maybe you were actually foolish enough to walk up and attack it, under the delusion that you'd have the slightest chance against this little ball of death. You're about to discover otherwise, but you probably won't live long enough to learn from your mistake.

The Needlefang Drake starts off with 'Pull Down', a minor action with +7 against Fortitude, that knocks the target prone on a hit. If it misses, no problem, it just tries again with its move action. An average 2nd-level PC has a Fortitude of maybe 14; the swarm has at least a 70% hit chance. You're going down.

The swarm then follows up with 'Swarm of Teeth', a basic attack. Against a prone target this attacks at +10 vs AC and does 2d10+4 damage. It's now the beginning of your turn, and you might think the worst is over, but you'd be wrong. Since you're in the swarm's aura, it now attacks again for the same amount.

If you've been lucky, the swarm has only managed to hit you once in this, doing 15ish damage or so. If you've been unlucky - and at +10 vs AC, the DM doesn't have to roll very well for you to be unlucky - you've been pulled down and hit twice for 4d10+8 damage. Just for comparison, an average 2nd-level Leader or Striker with a 13 Con has 30 HP at full health. In short, the swarm has an pretty good chance of taking you from full health to negatives in a single round.

But that's not all. Now that you're down, the swarm is going to keep attacking you. According to the MM, needlefang drakes attack in order to eat their prey; this means the most natural thing for them to do once you're down is to hit you again and finish you off. Even if the other PCs manage to intervene to stop this, you're still in the swarm's aura, meaning that at the start of your next turn you'll get hit again for yet another 2d10+4. Going down next to a Needlefang Drake Swarm is very near to a death sentence.

The other PCs might try to drag you away except for the fact that they're going to be busy with their own problems, because the Needlefang Drake Swarm is a level 2 monster. This means there are potentially as many of them as there are PCs in your party, and that's assuming it's a standard encounter. This means that it's quite possible for two swarms to attack you at once. If this is the case, you're dead, end of story.

In short, this creature will with moderately lucky rolls drop a PC to negatives in one round, and can be sure to take down even the toughest PC in three. Meanwhile, your own attacks are bouncing off it, because as a soldier its defences are excellent and as a swarm, normal attacks do only half damage. Your wizard might be able to hurt it, assuming he wasn't pulled down and shredded in the first round, which unless someone is on human shield duty is extremely likely. At this point your best course of action, assuming you're somehow still standing, is to run away. Maybe the next party to come through will have a chance.


Conclusion

As a DM, do not throw this monster against your PCs in any kind of normal encounter unless you want them to die. As PCs, if you see one of them, run. Remember, needlefang drakes attack to eat, which means you don't have to outrun the drakes, you just have to outrun your slowest party member.

The Needlefang Drake Swarm is supposed to be a level 2 monster, at 125 XP. This is ridiculous. My personal recommendation would be to treat it and all swarms as three levels higher than their book stats, or in this case a level 5 monster worth 200 XP.

And the next time you hear someone boast that their level 1-2 party can take down any level-appropriate encounter without problems, you know what to send at them to change their minds.

- Saph

[Funkyodor]

I do agree that the pull down & swarm of teeth tactic it has is rather effective, but the "The Needlefang Drake Swarm begins its turn next to your character." bit is a little un-realistic. You've put the swarm in a very advantageous position with no retaliation from the PC as it approached, or set the terrain to favor the monster (Ferocious cat-like creatures, go figure) so that it starts the round next to the PC. [4e] is a very mobile game, and its AC/Reflex to not be very high when combating equal level PC's. On average it will only get one pull down attempt, and against a Dwarf might not go so well. If not knocked prone, then one attack and a shift away means it doesn't get its double whammy attack and only one pull down when it gets closer. Even if prone, then one action point for a shift gets you out of the double whammy.

So like most of D&D, it's situational, depends on the character/group configuration, and the monster is only as good as the DM that plays him. Like you said, they are fearless ravenous creatures that swarm. Sneaking isn't in their nature, and hiding is flat out. They see food and charge at it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A con/str dwarf fighter with ToI and a war wizard is the best low-level solution. I agree that it's overpowered for a level 2 soldier, but I'd put it in the level 3-4 area.

[Saph]

I do agree that the pull down & swarm of teeth tactic it has is rather effective, but the "The Needlefang Drake Swarm begins its turn next to your character." bit is a little un-realistic.

It happened repeatedly in our game, so not sure how unrealistic it is - but okay, so it moves up, then pulls you down. It's still probably going to get you. The highest Fort for a level 2 PC is about 18, the lowest about 13 - that's a 50% to 75% chance. Not good odds, and next turn it will start its turn next to you, as it can go right into your space.

So like most of D&D, it's situational, depends on the character/group configuration, and the monster is only as good as the DM that plays him.

No. No no no. I fudged while running these monsters, gave the PCs every advantage, and two of them still devastated the party. Just two. Three would have been a TPK. It's not situational - these things are just horribly overpowered. If you want an (abbreviated) account of the fight, you can read it here.

- Saph

[Oracle_Hunter]

I do agree that the pull down & swarm of teeth tactic it has is rather effective, but the "The Needlefang Drake Swarm begins its turn next to your character." bit is a little un-realistic. You've put the swarm in a very advantageous position with no retaliation from the PC as it approached, or set the terrain to favor the monster (Ferocious cat-like creatures, go figure) so that it starts the round next to the PC. [4e] is a very mobile game, and its AC/Reflex to not be very high when combating equal level PC's. On average it will only get one pull down attempt, and against a Dwarf might not go so well. If not knocked prone, then one attack and a shift away means it doesn't get its double whammy attack and only one pull down when it gets closer. Even if prone, then one action point for a shift gets you out of the double whammy.

So like most of D&D, it's situational, depends on the character/group configuration, and the monster is only as good as the DM that plays him. Like you said, they are fearless ravenous creatures that swarm. Sneaking isn't in their nature, and hiding is flat out. They see food and charge at it.

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree. The Swarm moves 7 and can do it's takedown as a minor action. It can move, takedown, and attack all in one turn. At second level a good Fort is 17 (18 STR Fighter) so he's going to be landing that sucker more than 50/50. Plus, Prone targets grant combat advantage so the 2d10 basic attack is going to hit, and it's going to suck.

2d10 is a lot of damage, and swarms are still really hard to kill. It's pretty brutal.

[Saph]

A con/str dwarf fighter with ToI and a war wizard is the best low-level solution. I agree that it's overpowered for a level 2 soldier, but I'd put it in the level 3-4 area.

That was pretty much how my PCs survived (although only after I'd had to fudge some rolls to stop the wizard from being stripped to the bone in round 2). The eladrin fighter's first idea was Tide of Iron, too - but Tide of Iron can't push swarms. They're immune to forced movement from anything except close/area attacks.

- Saph

[Grynning]

While I agree that the drake swarm is nasty, my party took on 5 or 6 of them (can't remember exactly) of them while we were all still level one and no one died; it was tough, but we won. Granted we have a large group (7 people), but I don't think the monster is ridiculously overpowered. If you think they are, just don't use them against your group. The main problem with over powered monsters in 3.x was that polymorph and summon spells put that power in the hands of the players; 4th has nothing that does that so far.

[Oslecamo]

Muhaha, you poor fools.

This is WotC we're talking about. So this is just the beggining. THey were very carefull with the first set of books, but as soon as you took the bait, they threw away the care out the windown and went wild again, a la 3.5

Don't worry. The druid, when it comes out, will probably be able to wildshape into this.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Swarms have always been a really wonky monster to deal with, and they usually spelled death to low level parties.

The big change for 4e is that now CR is no longer just a floating number, and level is an actual rules term that describes its HD. It doesn't, however, take into account a monsters abilities. So, a monster like a NFD Swarm can have abilities that are way way way too good and that doesn't change it's level.

So, yeah, overpowered for it's level monster.

@Oscl: Yeah, you're right, an overpowered monster clearly proves the myriad of complaints everyone has. Please, throw in the towel over the matter.

[fractic]

Don't worry. The druid, when it comes out, will probably be able to wildshape into this.

Wildshaping into a swarm?

[Swordguy]

Sounds to me like it's a misprint - change the pull-down ability to a standard action, and they aren't anywhere NEAR as nasty, and similar abilities from different creatures are all standard actions. Has anyone seen an errata released on this, or any questions asked regarding it?

[EvilElitest]

Muhaha, you poor fools.

This is WotC we're talking about. So this is just the beggining. THey were very carefull with the first set of books, but as soon as you took the bait, they threw away the care out the windown and went wild again, a la 3.5

Don't worry. The druid, when it comes out, will probably be able to wildshape into this.

ah WotC, i love how we can come to expect your lack of quality to an absurd extreme
from
EE

[firepup]

wildshaping into a swarm happened in little nicky.

[snoopy13a]

Remember, needlefang drakes attack to eat, which means you don't have to outrun the drakes, you just have to outrun your slowest party member.

The punchline for one of my favorite jokes

[Edea]

I'm liking Swordguy's angle on this. Minor action pulldown doesn't sound quite right.

[Saph]

Sounds to me like it's a misprint - change the pull-down ability to a standard action, and they aren't anywhere NEAR as nasty, and similar abilities from different creatures are all standard actions. Has anyone seen an errata released on this, or any questions asked regarding it?

First thing I did when I got back was check the errata. Couldn't find any mention of it.

What really makes them vicious isn't just the minor-action pulldown, it's the free attack against every PC who starts their turn next to it. It means each swarm gets an average of two attacks per round, and sometimes three.

WotC just seems to have vastly, vastly underestimated how nasty swarms are against low-level parties. The Bloodweb Spider Swarm is the scaled-up version, and it's almost as bad.

- Saph

[quillbreaker]

I'm liking Swordguy's angle on this. Minor action pulldown doesn't sound quite right.

Seconded. It should be minor / encounter or recharge, or standard / at will. Encounter fits nicely for combat maneuvers which a target isn't likely to fall for more than once, and this is that kind of thing. A swarm of cats with teeth is only going to be able to knock you over so many times.

Any kind of offensive "minor action" ability should raise a *serious* question mark, especially with unlimited use. After all, the monster can convert all of it's actions to minor actions and do it three times.

[Swordguy]

Seconded. It should be minor / encounter or recharge, or standard / at will. Encounter fits nicely for combat maneuvers which a target isn't likely to fall for more than once, and this is that kind of thing. A swarm of cats with teeth is only going to be able to knock you over so many times.

Any kind of offensive "minor action" ability should raise a *serious* question mark, especially with unlimited use. After all, the monster can convert all of it's actions to minor actions and do it three times.

That's what triggered my WTF? meter. It's one of their core game conceits that non-daily offensive actions are either minor/encounter, standard/encounter or standard/at-will or standard/encounter.

[Oracle_Hunter]

So, I've done some more thinking about the swarm.

I think the problem here is that swarms are generally much tougher than they seem. You really need a Wizard to deal with them effectively, and that's not immediately obvious to new players. If you know that you need to nuke them with burst effects, then they become much easier; but if you don't, they are far tougher.

Their power selection is perfectly sensible, BTW. The designers wanted to make them act like tiny raptor swarms - they move, pounce, and then devour. This is extremely deadly for squishies (they have low Fort anyhow, and 2d10 damage is no picnic) and the aura means you don't want to stay close to them for long - if you shift every turn, then they'll only be able to get one takedown on you; or you can Tide of Iron/Thunderwave them back.

Having more than one swarm on the field at a time is probably asking for trouble. Those aura effects (only 1d10+4 for standing people) are nasty, and having two running around will probably overload a normal sized party's capabilities in no time at all. Also, allowing them to get surprise is going to be absolutely lethal unless you have very smart fighters.

[Saph]

Their power selection is perfectly sensible, BTW. The designers wanted to make them act like tiny raptor swarms - they move, pounce, and then devour. This is extremely deadly for squishies (they have low Fort anyhow, and 2d10 damage is no picnic) and the aura means you don't want to stay close to them for long - if you shift every turn, then they'll only be able to get one takedown on you; or you can Tide of Iron/Thunderwave them back.

Problem is, Tide of Iron does nothing against them (well, apart from a bit of damage). If you look up the Swarm type in the back of the MM, they're immune to forced movement from melee/ranged attacks.

- Saph

[Oracle_Hunter]

Problem is, Tide of Iron does nothing against them (well, apart from a bit of damage). If you look up the Swarm type in the back of the MM, they're immune to forced movement from melee/ranged attacks.

- Saph

Sonuvabitch.

That tears it - swarms are extremely nasty. I think you can still use them, but only as a super-Soldier; one that you can drop into the front row of the PCs to utterly occupy their attention for a few rounds.

They're immune to fear too. Nice.

Well, if you allow Alchemist Fire, these become much less nasty, but all swarms should probably be bumped up a level or two.

Anyhow: I don't think they're That Damn Crab, but they are a little underleveled. Make them LV 3 or 4 and I think they'll work out OK.

[Dausuul]

The nastiest part of the needlefang drake swarm is what happens when you put two or more of them in an encounter. They have entirely too much synergy going on.

[Starsinger]

Another really broken monster is the Ghaele of Winter. Minor action, Close burst 3(?) vs. Fort or the target is dazeduntil the end of the encounter. That's not so bad, I guess.

The bad part? This power recharges whenever the Ghaele hits atleast 2 enemies with another attack. Said other attack? Automatically hits, Close burst 3(?) too.

Edit: dazed, not weakened.

[quillbreaker]

Another really broken monster is the Ghaele of Winter. Minor action, Close burst 3(?) vs. Fort or the target is dazeduntil the end of the encounter. That's not so bad, I guess.

The bad part? This power recharges whenever the Ghaele hits atleast 2 enemies with another attack. Said other attack? Automatically hits, Close burst 3(?) too.

Edit: dazed, not weakened.

Interesting thing is, her tactics state that she prefers to zap things with her rather unimpressive freezing ray than to ever close with anyone. She wants to fight at range and it seems that tactically, the wise thing to do is to let her.

[Beleriphon]

Interesting thing is, her tactics state that she prefers to zap things with her rather unimpressive freezing ray than to ever close with anyone. She wants to fight at range and it seems that tactically, the wise thing to do is to let her.

Yeah, isn't it an artillery monster? The saves and HP don't really support moving into melee combat. It seems that a number of the powers that creatures have are for knocking a player senseless and then running away to resume their preferred tactics.

[Chronos]

Having more than one swarm on the field at a time is probably asking for trouble.

The nastiest part of the needlefang drake swarm is what happens when you put two or more of them in an encounter.

Isn't 4e supposed to have a label specifically for monsters like that, now?

[Knaight]

Well your best shot is a wizard using the thunderwave at will then running, and even then if these guys pull you down your dead. A wizard with thunderwave(slightly above half of all wizards) is the only real option I can think of with a good chance, without blowing daily powers. Four of these guys against four wizards is not going to be pretty.

[Dhavaer]

Isn't 4e supposed to have a label specifically for monsters like that, now?

There are the solo and elite keywords for monsters that count as five or two seperate monsters. There's nothing for monsters that count as one monster but shouldn't be grouped with other monsters of the same kind, though.

[quillbreaker]

It should probably be an elite as presented, yes, for a handful of reasons. Thematically it doesn't really fit as an elite, so it should probably be toned down.

[Grynning]

There are the solo and elite keywords for monsters that count as five or two seperate monsters. There's nothing for monsters that count as one monster but shouldn't be grouped with other monsters of the same kind, though.

Maybe we should make up a label for them and keep a thread going for reference.