[3.5 ed] Max possible 1st level melee dmg

[chevalier]

Hi,

Who can construct the maximum possible single melee attack for a first level core class character using the CORE BOOKS only, under the following conditions:

+ 1st level
+ any race or class from PHB or (no half-ogres or warforged)
+ only feats from PHB or DMG
+ any weapon (under core RAW, including exotic if they have the feat)
EDITED TO ADD: no magic or masterwork weapons. Mundane only.
+ can "roll" any stats up to core RAW racial max (make all the rolls 18 if you want)
+ can assume maximum dice rolls, ie double 20s on to-hit and confirm crit, as well as full weapon damage.
+ let's say non-mounted weapons, just to keep it simple

Trying to give my group of (very welcome! love 'em!) non-optimizing roleplayers an idea of what true optimizers can do...none of them are min-maxers or cheese lovers...

Have fun!



C.

[Tengu_temp]

Are psionics rules considered core? They're in the SRD.

[chevalier]

Are psionics core?

Let's say no psionics here...they are in the SRD, but I'm trying to keep it simple. Or maybe we look for best psionics and best non-psionics answer.

C.

[fractic]

The best results would probably come from a 1st level wizard. Start with an 18 in str instead of int and sell your spellbook. Instead of the usual riding dogs buy some high level buffs.

[Frosty]

Max possible is probably a Half-orc Barbarian using a Scythe.

While raging, you have 24 strength. With scythe, that is 2d4+10 per hit. On a crit, that's 8d4+40.

EDIT: Take Power Attack. PA for +2/-1 so your damage is 2d4+12. Crit for 8d4+48

[Hal]

The problem is, at first level you don't really have much you CAN do, especially if you're ruling out any magic.

More than likely, the answer is going to be either a raging barbarian or a sneak-attacking rogue, both of whom use power attack to add an additional point or two to damage (since you're letting us assume 20s on all rolls).

[Spiryt]

Well, as far as I know, fulll orc barbarian is perfectly core, and he has better strenght on LA + 0.

[Tengu_temp]

Max possible is probably a Half-orc Barbarian using a Scythe.

While raging, you have 24 strength. With scythe, that is 2d4+10 per hit. On a crit, that's 8d4+40.

EDIT: Take Power Attack. PA for +2/-1 so your damage is 2d4+12. Crit for 8d4+48

Core rules have orcs in the Monster Manual. 2 additional Strength. 2d4+14 damage, 8d4+56 crit.

EDIT: Damn, ninja'ed!

[emeraldstreak]

A commoner with Handle Animal that has invested all her starting money in bloodthirsty mules (8gp each)!!

[Tengu_temp]

A commoner with Handle Animal that has invested all her starting money in bloodthirsty mules (8gp each)!!

No offense, but have you read the OP or just the thread's title? This is about the highest damage in a single blow.

[chevalier]

Here's what I get: half orc barbarian with 18 strength-->racially adjusted to 20
feats: power attack, exotic prof (Scythe)

RAGES (STR = 24 = +7), swings at opponent using power attack (+1 dmg due to +1 BAB)
rolls a 20, confirms with 20
rolls 2d4 = 8 dmg

so we get 8 base damage + 11 two hander (7*1.5 rounded up) + 1 power attack = 20 x 4 for the crit = 80.

(ETA: or do you round down on two handed damage? That would still make it 76)

Not bad!

Can anyone beat 76?

(Also, Donkeys, dogs, housecats, catgirls, etc. aren't per se weapons, at least not RAW.)

C.

[Eldariel]

+2 damage since it's a two-handed weapon. Also, it's a Martial Weapon, so no EWP needed (not that you'd have the feat anyways).

[Arbitrarity]

Core books only, no mounted combat? There's so little here to cheese that there's nothing to optimize, really. All you can do is pick the biggest weapon, highest stats, and hit as hard as you can.

This, of course, is an enlarged half-orc wizard with power attack, dual wielding heavy picks. 8d8+36 damage on two hits, both critical. Oooh, 100 damage maximum.

This, of course, is at the cost of attacking at -5/-9. But, we roll all 20's, so it auto-hits!

Completely useless, of course. But it's more damage than I can pump out any other way in core, apart from mounted combat. Even a barbarian can't match this, with his 8d4+40. The only way to beat that is with higher level buffs, which can only be afforded by... wizards.

The wizard can sell his spellbook, to have ~1400 gp. This allows the purchase of a few temporary buffs.

Once again, core only :/. Let's say... Polymorph (280), bull's strength (60 gp), and Animal growth (450 gp). Also, haste (150) Oh, two magic weapons and a magic fang (30 gp total). Also, rage spell. Turn into a baboon. Use your Large size, hands, and bite attack. That's 29 strength, bite attack for 1d8+5, Picks at 1d8+10 and 1d8+5.

This gives 2d8+10 + 8d8+80+4d8+20, or maximum of 222.

That's about as high as I can get... You still suck. This lasts one round, and you WON'T crit with each attack there. Just not happening.

Darn, missed the "single attack". K, just wizard, buff with bull's strength, magic weapon, enlarge person, and rage spell. Half-orc with scythe. Hit deals 8d6+56.

[chevalier]

+2 damage since it's a two-handed weapon.

I do believe that brings us back to 80!

C.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The "fat jumper" is a Cleric 1 who can Enlarge Person and then automatically succeed in high-jumping 10 feet, search the WotC CO board for it. The character plus his gear when Enlarged weighs at least 4000 pounds, so as per falling object rules in the DMG (page 303) anyone he lands on will take 20d6 bludgeoning damage, no attack roll, no saving throw. Since he's Large sized he can land on up to four creatures at once, therefore 20d6 damage 4 times in one round. Note that he can cast Enlarge Person as a standard action, and spend a move action to jump on people in the same round. The following round he can spend two move-actions to jump on people twice, so he deals his damage to up to eight creatures at once on the second and subsequent rounds, for the 10-round duration of the Enlarge Person.

Note that this is a rules exploit, and not necessarily optimization. It probably wouldn't even qualify as melee damage for this challenge, but I'm always anxious for a chance to throw it out there. The Psionic version just goes Psychic Warrior 1 with the feat Up the Walls instead of jumping, though Expansion has a much shorter duration than Enlarge Person.


For melee damage at level 1, any character with Str 14+, Dex 14+, Combat Reflexes, a Glaive, and good positioning will be the MVP of any encounter. Throw on a +1 BAB and Power Attack whether via Human or Fighter, and you're almost guaranteed to 1-shot anything that gets close that's not an inappropriately high challenge for a 1st level party.

For a more appropriate challenge, I would say max damage at level 1, at level 2, at level 3, and at level 4, and see how the damage potential scales at each level. For example, a Rogue 1/ Fighter 1 with Str 18, Dex 18, Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon: Barbed Dagger (CV), and 5 ranks in Slight of Hand will get 2 attacks/round for 1d4+6+1d6 primary, 1d4+4+1d6 offhand, max 30 damage with no crits, max 48 if both crit. For non-core a Druid 4 can gain any animal companion for which his effective druid level would be at least 1, so with Natural Bond he can get a Tiger companion at level 4 (the "7th level or higher" header on the table conflicts with the text, RAW). He can cast Bull's Strength on it and then Enrage Animal (SC) and it can deal 1d8+10, 1d8+10, 2d6+5, 1d8+6, 1d8+6 on a Pounce, for a no-crit max of 81 damage, or double that if everything crits. Granted that is at level 4 and uses a non-core feat and a non-core buff spell, but it should give a good idea of how fast damage can scale up in only a few levels.

[Mr Pants]

Here's what I get: half orc barbarian with 18 strength-->racially adjusted to 20
feats: power attack, exotic prof (Scythe)

RAGES (STR = 24 = +7), swings at opponent using power attack (+1 dmg due to +1 BAB)
rolls a 20, confirms with 20
rolls 2d4 = 8 dmg

so we get 8 base damage + 11 two hander (7*1.5 rounded up) + 1 power attack = 20 x 4 for the crit = 80.

(ETA: or do you round down on two handed damage? That would still make it 76)

Not bad!

Can anyone beat 76?

(Also, Donkeys, dogs, housecats, catgirls, etc. aren't per se weapons, at least not RAW.)

C.

This looks like the best one can do with just core. Unless we can use Orcs as the race and increase the strength to a 26 to get a total of 88 damage on a max crit.

Part of being a munchkin is knowing obscure feats to use from various books, not just core.

[chevalier]

. It probably wouldn't even qualify as melee damage for this challenge

That is correct, sir! Looking for weapons-based, one-hit stuff here.

C.

[Tengu_temp]

The "fat jumper" is a Cleric 1 who can Enlarge Person and then automatically succeed in high-jumping 10 feet, search the WotC CO board for it. The character plus his gear when Enlarged weighs at least 4000 pounds, so as per falling object rules in the DMG (page 303) anyone he lands on will take 20d6 bludgeoning damage, no attack roll, no saving throw. Since he's Large sized he can land on up to four creatures at once, therefore 20d6 damage 4 times in one round. Note that he can cast Enlarge Person as a standard action, and spend a move action to jump on people in the same round. The following round he can spend two move-actions to jump on people twice, so he deals his damage to up to eight creatures at once on the second and subsequent rounds, for the 10-round duration of the Enlarge Person.

Does he eat a mushroom as a material component for Enlarge Person?

[Arbitrarity]

This looks like the best one can do with just core. Unless we can use Orcs as the race and increase the strength to a 26 to get a total of 88 damage on a max crit.

Part of being a munchkin is knowing obscure feats to use from various books, not just core.

Aha, I can beat that. Get a barbarian, with bull's strength and enlarge person cast on him (70 gp) and grab a scythe. You have 20 (half orc) + 4 (bull's strength) + 2 (enlarge person) + 4 (rage), for 30 strength. Hit with scythe is 2d6 (size) + 15, a crit with max damage is 8d6 (48) + 60, or 108 damage.

[Mr Pants]

Aha, I can beat that. Get a barbarian, with bull's strength and enlarge person cast on him (70 gp) and grab a scythe. You have 20 (half orc) + 4 (bull's strength) + 2 (enlarge person) + 4 (rage), for 30 strength. Hit with scythe is 2d6 (size) + 15, a crit with max damage is 8d6 (48) + 60, or 108 damage.

oo nice
i had for some reason forgotten about spells

but once again you could go with orc in place of half orc and get a 32 strength and a total of 152 damage. (2d6 + 24 strength + 2 PA)*4

I've played a 5th level druid/barbarian that got 2 effectively colossal maces each doing 6d8 with the help of Shillegah and a houserule that defined what exactly a club is.

[Arbitrarity]

Doh, forgot PA there. However. Orc is not allowed, being MM, not PHB race. Also, it's not +24 damage, but +16.

Meh, append 8. So 116 damage.

[Mr Pants]

Doh, forgot PA there. However. Orc is not allowed, being MM, not PHB race. Also, it's not +24 damage, but +16.

Meh, append 8. So 116 damage.

Well darn. Also I apparently can't do math anymore. /doh

[Chronos]

Let's give another try... Half-orc cleric, Strength and Destruction domains, with a scythe (non-proficient, but with natural 20s, that won't matter). He buffs himself with Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon, and Divine Favor. He has a strength of 22 (18 +2 racial +2 Enlarge), for a +6 Str mod (+9 damage, with a two-handed weapon). His scythe is large, for 2d6 damage, +9 Str, +1 enhancement (Magic Weapon), +1 luck (Divine Favor), +1 smite (destruction granted power), and that all gets multiplied by 4 on a critical hit, for 8d6 + 48, or 96 on max rolls. And that still leaves him money to pay to have higher-level buffs cast on him.

[Ponce]

Edit: Missed a rule.

[Arbitrarity]

Toss a bull's strength on the cleric, with remaining cash, adding 12 average damage, or 108. Can't get more than that, though.

If we get an outside buff magic weapon on the barbarian, another 10gp, he gets 120 damage, or the same as the fall build. That's... 98 gp in buffs and scythe, out of a maximum of 160 gp starting gold. We can fit a second level spell, or many first level spells. Hm. If we take UMD cross-class, we can get +5, and try to use a scroll of divine power.

Keep trying to use the scroll (you never fail the WIS check, as it is DC 5). Once you suceed, get the other spells cast, and add another point of damage*4, or 124! Wohoo!

Any ideas on further enhancing this single hit? I think we beat out chargers, because lance is *2 crit, and if we auto-crit, *4 > 2*2 (3 in D&D maths)

[Chronos]

Actually, lances are x3 crit, not x2. As a rule of thumb, piercing weapons (like arrows and lances) get an increase to their multiplier, and weapons with their weight concentrated at the end (like axes and hammers) also get an increase to their multiplier. Picks and scythes, since they fall into both of those categories, get two increases to their multiplier.

And as far as wealth goes, we could get away with arguing for an amount of wealth up to just below the 2nd-level WBL. A first-level character who's been through an adventure or two and is just a few XP away from level 2 is still a first-level character.

Still, though, I'd prefer to keep the expendables to a minimum. I know that we're being a bit unrealistic by assuming perfect rolls, but I'd still like to be able to do what we're doing again the next day. Is there anything a first-level character can afford to buy that doesn't get used up?

[Lemur]

Okay, so my version doesn't technically break the rules, but it breaks the spirit of the rules, so I'm sure it will be disqualified. But this is the sort of thing that optimizers will do, so I'll post it anyway for humor value.

10 Half-Orc Barbarians with 20 strength. 1 attack. Each has an average of 100 gp starting gold, which they pool to buy a battering ram (1000 gp, DMG page 100). All rage and pool their strength on the battering ram, each adding their STR mod of +7 to the damage. And let's say the leader has power attack as well, so add one more damage to that.

So we end up with:
3d8+71 damage, max 95, critical max 190.

[BobVosh]

Bah, I just reread the rules. No wizard.

Just reread it again. States in one place core classes, excludes wizard. Then adds it again. Do you work for wotc?

Anyway, can you fix the rules so they make more sense?

[Arbitrarity]

Don't the rules say "a first level character"? I think a bunch of people violates the singular element.

Oh, I choose assassin 1 (It's on the list of core classes in the rules). I death attack the tarrasque, dealing 868 damage instantly.

Very little under 900 gp that improves damage is reusable. You can't get magic weapons, most items cost more. Level 1 wand, you can get 1 of. Not impressive.

[Person_Man]

Bull Rush someone off the edge of a cliff and into the mouth of a volcano. 10d6 falling damage + 20d6 of lava damage.