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Thread: Illusionist tips
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2008-09-03, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Illusionist tips
Hi everyone. I'm about to make a new, 17th-level character for a new campaign (mind you, the highest-level campaign I've been in so far) and I was thinking of building an Illusionist.
Now, the DM is asking us to make detailed backgrounds for our characters, so my girlfriend and I were discussing possibly coming from the same wizard academy. This is a Planescape game, and the DM pretty much gave us free choice as to what material plane we come from. This also means most splatbooks are allowed.
I was looking over the Master Specialist PrC in CMage, and the esoterica for Illusionist look sweet. Free stilled, silent, material-free spells? Yes please! However, my girlfriend also wants to be a Master Specialist. While we think there is enough distinction between the different specializations to make distinct (pardon the redundances) characters, I was wondering what other PrCs would be good.
I know your cheese detectors must be screaming at the idea of a dual-wizard party, and I am a decent optimizer, but our DM knows us very well and he explicitly said the campaign will be high-powered.
As far as race goes, I'll probably play a Gnome or Whisper Gnome. I could go for human if the extra feat is very valuable.
Your help is greatly appreciated!
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2008-09-03, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
What ever happened to good old Beguilers? You know, the class BUILT AROUND ILLUSION.
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2008-09-03, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-03, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
While I did consider a Beguiler, I've never played a pure spellcaster before, and I have played several roguelikes. Mostly pure rogues, and a spellthief. I wanted to try Wizard for a change, and the Illusionist specialization is quite appealing to me.
Edit: I'll look into Shadowcraft Mage. Thanks for the tip!Last edited by Qanael; 2008-09-03 at 06:53 PM.
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2008-09-03, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Well, if you're a wizard, this will help.
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2008-09-03, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-03, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Nightmare Spinner is cool if you want to go to the darker side of things.
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2008-09-03, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Alright, after looking at Master Specialist and Shadowcraft Mage and their prerequisites, I think I'll go something like:
Wizard (Illusionist) 3/Master Specialist 10/Shadowcraft Mage 4
for my 17-level build. Finish SCM in one level, and maybe cap off with 3 levels of Wizard. Perhaps Archmage, even?
This gives my illusion spells:
Silent Spell (overlaps from both classes, bit of a bummer)
Still Spell
Extend Spell
Eschew Materials
+4 DC (2 from Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus, 2 from Minor School Esoterica)
+2 CL
Master Specialist gives me 3 extra illusion spells known.
Shadowcraft Mage gives me 40% (edit: 35% at level 4) concealment as a free action, as long as I'm not in daylight. This doesn't stack with Master Specialist's Moderate School Esoterica, which gives normal concealment - I could use the latter in daylight, I guess. It only says "You gain concealment."
I also get the ability to use any illusion spell to cast a conjuration(summoning), conjuration(creation), or evocation spell of a lower level, with strength depending on the illusion's level, and a 20% bonus to shadow spells in general (including the previous ability).Last edited by Qanael; 2008-09-03 at 09:53 PM.
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2008-09-03, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
What are your prohibited schools?
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2008-09-03, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Definitely Evocation - one of the Shadowcraft Mage's primary abilities would be less useful if I didn't, plus the school sucks in general. Probably Enchantment for the second one, since my girlfriend's character will be an enchanter.
Now, time to look for some feats!
Edit: I'm looking at Nightmare Spinner right now. It has nice features, and synergizes awfully well with my other 2 PRCs. At level 20 I'd have 3 levels in it, which avoids the dead level nicely. However, it's a bit too dark for my taste - my character will likely be NG, and the whole scaring people half to death part might not be too appealing. I'll give it some thought. Thanks for the tip!Last edited by Qanael; 2008-09-03 at 08:10 PM.
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2008-09-03, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
I'm fond of the Complete Mage Reserve Feats, myself.
Minor Shapeshift: Swift-action temp HP = character level, renewable every round. Does wonders for your endurance. Only needs a 4th level spell for full effect.
Dimensional Jaunt: Get out of grapple and most other physical inconveniences, no roll required, every single time it comes up. Again, only needs a 4th level spell for full effect. Combine with the Invisibility spell (a 2nd level illusion that affects objects) and you can go through doors and walls without opening them.
If you don't have a trapfinder in the party, it's also a decent idea to take Summon Elemental (and combine with a Permanent Arcane Sight) as a free trapspringer.
As you're planning on taking levels in Shadowcraft mage, I might suggest Signature Spell (any Image spell - for the Shadowcraft conversion to a Shadow Evocation/Shadow Conjuration effect), Heighten Spell, and possibly things to boost that further (such as Earth Spell, Arcane Thesis (the Image spell you've got as a Signiture spell), and so on).Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2008-09-03, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Illusionist tips
That Minor Shapeshift trick is very nice. I think I'll take that.
The "make door invisible, Dimensional Jaunt through" is outright cheesy. I love it.
We have a decent-sized party (4 or 5, I think) so finding and disabling traps should not be a problem.
As for Signature Spell: that sounds great! Free shadow spells galore. Arcane Thesis is quite cheesy; I'll have to consult my DM for that one. Heighten Spell is very nice. I'm not so sure about Earth Spell; the prerequisite feat is pretty meh, and I'm running low on feats already.
Edit: I'm looking for a nice high-level illusion spell to make my signature spell. Any ideas? I'll be level 15 when I take the feat, so I guess it has to be 8th level or lower.
Editedit: Superior Invisibility seems as good a candidate as any. However, I have to pick it with Spell Mastery, which I would take at level 12. Does this mean I need to use a 6th level spell instead, or can I save the Spell Mastery until level 15?
Yep. Mislead it is, then. I could always wait until later for the whole Signature Spell combo...Last edited by Qanael; 2008-09-03 at 11:14 PM.
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2008-09-04, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Alright, so a preliminary character plan:
28 point buy for:
STR 6
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 20
WIS 14
CHA 10
Note: the campaign starts at 17th level, so the order of the classes isn't all that relevant except for the Gnome sub level.
{TABLE]CL|Class|Feats
1|Gnome Illusionist Racial Sub 1|Spellcasting Prodigy (I have background justification! )
2|Illusionist 2|
3|Illusionist 3|Spell Focus (Illusion)
4|Master Specialist 1|Bonus Feat: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
5|Master Specialist 2|
6|Master Specialist 3|Bonus Feat: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) <br>Heighten Spell
7|Master Specialist 4|
8|Master Specialist 5|
9|Master Specialist 6|Earth Sense
10|Master Specialist 7|
11|Master Specialist 8|
12|Master Specialist 9|Spell Mastery (Silent Image and other useful spells)
13|Master Specialist 10|
14|Shadowcraft Mage 1|
15|Shadowcraft Mage 2|Signature Spell (Silent Image)
16|Shadowcraft Mage 3|
17|Shadowcraft Mage 4|
[/TABLE]
Dropped schools: Evocation, Enchantment (Shadow casting ftw!)
-1 CL to Transmutation
I like the general look of it. However, I might stick Dimensional Jaunt at 9th level, Spell Mastery at 15th (for Superior Invisibility) and Signature Spell (Superior Invisibility) at 18.
Edit: read the following posts for the switch to Silent Image.
Opinions?Last edited by Qanael; 2008-09-05 at 12:46 AM.
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2008-09-04, 12:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
I think the point of recommending both Signature Spell and Heighten Spell is that you would be able to convert higher level spell slots into Heightened versions of the Signature Spell, thereby allowing you to spontaneously convert any spell slot of the same or higher level as your Signature Spell into that spell, heightened to whatever level the original spell was. You then proceed to use your Shadowcraft Mage abilities to turn it into a Shadow Conjuration/Evocation of whatever level you used.
The end result is that you can fuel your Shadow Illusion ability with any spell that is at least as high level as your signature spell without losing any spell levels by the conversion. What your signature spell does and what level it is are completely irrelevant to the final effect, so you actually want it to be as low level as possible to allow maximum flexibility in your spontaneous Shadow Illusions. So, you should be taking Signature Spell (Silent Image) rather than Signature Spell (Mislead).Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
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2008-09-04, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Oh. Oooh. I get it now. That's...that's smart.
Sorry, I'm sleepy.
I'll edit the table above to reflect the use of brain power. Thanks!
There, edited. Now I'm wondering whether I should change the order of my feats, but I don't see a point; the Signature Spell coincides nicely with the second level of SCM, and at third level I gain Shadow Illusion, which gives the feat its purpose.
Edit: Hmph. I don't get enough feats to get Earth Spell before 20th level. I'll have to do something else, I guess, or sacrifice Residual Magic for Earth Sense.Last edited by Qanael; 2008-09-04 at 01:04 AM.
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2008-09-04, 01:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Bah. My DM doesn't want to let me apply metamagic to the Signature Spell. I guess a feat reshuffling is in order...
He allowed it after showing him the PHB's paragraph on cleric spontaneous metamagic. The feat does say it works just like it.Last edited by Qanael; 2008-09-04 at 10:41 AM.
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2008-09-04, 01:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Is that just his interpretation of the rules, or a deliberate house rule? If the former, point out the following pair of quotes:
From Signature Spell:
just as a good cleric can spontaneously cast prepared spells as cure spells.
A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead.Last edited by Douglas; 2008-09-04 at 01:57 AM.
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2008-09-04, 03:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
If you really want to go all-out on illusions, take a look at the gnome illusionist substitution levels in Races of Stone. Stack it with focused specialist variant from Complete Mage, master specialist (Complete Mage), shadowcraft mage (Races of Stone), and nightmare spinner (Complete Mage) for massive number of illusions spells/day.
You have to be a gnome, but considering it'll net you an inherent +1 bonus to your illusion save DCs (that stacks with Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus, which you'll need for/get from your other levels, as well as the +2 DC bonus for your "Will disbelief" spells from master specialist) and reduced spell levels for a number of spells (many of the image spells drop by a spell level or two so you can learn them earlier than normal) it's definitely worthwhile.
You'll end up having to sacrifice 3 schools of magic (evocation, enchantment, and necromancy are probably the preferred drops) and suffer a reduced caster level for another but it'll net you +4 illusion spells prepared for each spell level once you head into nightmare spinner (+1 for specialist +2 for focused specialist +1 for nightmare spinner). It'll end you costing you 1 caster level (nightmare spinner 1) and a single general spell slot per spell level (focused specialist).
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2008-09-04, 05:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
You just suggested like half the things that OP said he was doing already oO.
While you're abusing Shadowcraft Mage you might as well take Arcane Thesis (Silent Image) (PHBII) or something, +2 Caster Level, although I dunno what you'd do with the -1 metamagic cost... Apply Silent and Still... again?
EDIT: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556 may help, I hear it's quite cheesy though.Last edited by jcsw; 2008-09-04 at 05:28 AM.
Sig'd
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2008-09-04, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
I know, it only increases my versatility. And after showing him the paragraph on cleric spontaneous metamagic in the PHB, he agreed to allow it.
For the gnome racial sub level - thanks! I hadn't seen that, and I'm already using Shadowcraft Mage (a gnome-only PrC) from Races of Stone, so I might as well. I'm not so sure about focused specialist - the fun part of this build is having added versatility through shadow casting (i.e. I'm dropping evocation, but I can cast almost all spells from the school currently, and all of them once I get Earth Spell).
As jcsw said, I'm already using Master Specialist and Shadowcraft Mage, but thanks for the suggestions anyway. It is a pretty awesome build from what I've seen so far.
I don't really like the fluff for Nightmare Spinner for this character, and the first level doesn't gain any spellcasting, so I'm better off taking another full progression class and gaining 1 spell/level anyway.
I could use Arcane Thesis to reduce the level increase for my Heighten, giving me almost a 1:1 ratio for the level of illusions I can cast to the level of shadow evocations/conjurations I can create through SCM. Earth Spell seems better for that, though. +1 effective spell level for Heighten, and +spell level to caster level.
Edit: see here for the updated character plan.
I think I lose Scribe Scroll from taking the first racial sub level. Hmm...Last edited by Qanael; 2008-09-04 at 12:30 PM.
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2008-09-04, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Points to consider:
1: Do not drop Conjuration You will want that. Doesn't matter if you can mimic it, do not drop it unless you are playing a 17th level game and you can pull off the Shadow Miracle trick.
2: SCM should be taken much sooner than 14th. Its 3rd level class feature is just that damn good.
3: I see the setup for Shadow Miracle there, but it is missing Arcane Disciple (Luck domain). If you don't know the trick, don't even think about using it.
4: Exemplars of Evil has a feat that is strictly superior to Signature Spell (two of them, for you). One is Uncanny Forethought, and the other I don't remember the name for, but I can tell you what it does. It allows you to spontaneously convert any of your spell slots into Illusion (Figment) spells at will.
5: Get the Gnome substitution level that makes Silent Image a 0 level spell.
6: I don't see Echo Spell there. Good, this will keep your DM from killing you.
7: May want to look into Focused Specialist in Complete Mage. It is worth the trade, just ban Evocation, Enchantment, and Abjuration or Necromancy. Conjuration is the most powerful school of magic there is, and just being able to mimic some of its spells isn't normally enough.Last edited by Sinfire Titan; 2008-09-04 at 04:18 PM.
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2008-09-04, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Shadow Miracle? What is this?
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2008-09-04, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Take Arcane Disciple (Luck domain). Miracle is now a sor/wiz spell for you.
Take (at least) 3 levels of Shadowcraft Mage, Heighten Spell, and Earth Spell.
Get a 9th level sorcerer or wizard spell slot.
Heighten some image spell to 9th level. Earth Spell boosts it to 10th.
Use your Shadow Illusion ability to convert that 10th level image into a 10th level Shadow Evocation, capable of duplicating any sor/wiz evocation of 9th level or lower.
Pick Miracle as the spell to duplicate.Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
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2008-09-04, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-04, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-05, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Sinfire Titan:
1. Alright, I won't drop conjuration - I'll probably go for Enchantment then.
2. The campaign starts at 17th level. I'll clarify that in the table post. If I was playing through the whole thing, you're right, I'd take SCM as soon as it was available. As it stands, the order isn't very relevant. I might change it for consistency, though.
3. I know about Shadow Miracle. I'm just not putting my DM through that.
4. Interesting. I'll look those up. Thanks!
Edit: The feat for spontaneous illusions is Proteus. Unfortunately, it only allows you to cast glamers, and SCM's Shadow Illusion requires images (figments). Also, Uncanny Forethought doesn't specify that it works like cleric spontaneous casting, so my DM might not allow me to Heighten spells cast through it. I'll have to ask him.
5. The first level is the Gnome substitution level. I'll make it clearer.
6. Yup.
7. I've considered it. Still not sure, though.
As always, thanks for the tips and suggestions. I'm in the process of finding ways to run out of money. I like how wizards are already pretty darn powerful without actually buying anything...Last edited by Qanael; 2008-09-05 at 12:38 AM.
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2008-09-05, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
With a gnome illusionist/master specialist progression, you should be able to qualify for shadowcraft mage after your fourth level of master specialist.
Note that, if you go the nightmare spinner route, you really don't need the last two levels as they don't add anything really useful to the character. I usually head into dread witch from Heroes of Horror to boost the fear save DCs, though it will mean dropping another caster level. Otherwise, fill out more master specialist or, as others have suggested, head into archmage if meet the prereqs.
1. gnome illusionist 1
2. illusionist 2
3. illusionist 3
4. master specialist 1
5. master specialist 2
6. master specialist 3
7. master specialist 4
8. scm 1
9. scm 2
10. scm 3
11. scm 4
12. scm 5
13. nightmare spinner 1
14. nightmare spinner 2
15. nightmare spinner 3
16. whatever
17. whatever
As for cash, yeah, grab a headband of intellect and you're pretty much golden. Good other stuff to look for would be any kind of magic item that can boost your caster level (such as the ioun stone) and metamagic rods...though those are fairly obvious suggestions.
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2008-09-05, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Good man!
2. The campaign starts at 17th level. I'll clarify that in the table post. If I was playing through the whole thing, you're right, I'd take SCM as soon as it was available. As it stands, the order isn't very relevant. I might change it for consistency, though.
3. I know about Shadow Miracle. I'm just not putting my DM through that.
4. Interesting. I'll look those up. Thanks!
Edit: The feat for spontaneous illusions is Proteus. Unfortunately, it only allows you to cast glamers, and SCM's Shadow Illusion requires images (figments). Also, Uncanny Forethought doesn't specify that it works like cleric spontaneous casting, so my DM might not allow me to Heighten spells cast through it. I'll have to ask him.
5. The first level is the Gnome substitution level. I'll make it clearer.
6. Yup.
7. I've considered it. Still not sure, though.
As always, thanks for the tips and suggestions. I'm in the process of finding ways to run out of money. I like how wizards are already pretty darn powerful without actually buying anything...
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2008-09-05, 01:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
Wow, I didn't think you'd be online. Great!
I'm looking at Uncanny Forethought again, and I think I see what you mean - I can cast any spell that I know, therefore I can power the Shadow Illusion with a spell of any level. The problem is, I don't think there's 1 figment spell per spell level, and also, I couldn't use the Heighten Spell + Earth Spell combo to cast 9th level evocations (since it doesn't refer to anything that would allow metamagic). Also, Earth Spell boosts your CL a LOT, while Uncanny Forethough would drop it. To add onto that, Heighten seems very useful for illusions all by itself. I think I'll stick with Signature Spell.
As for Focused Specialist: I'm convinced. I'm changing it around now. I love the drawing of the Lich's spell fizzling out from the focused abjurer.
ghost warlock: I'm not taking Nightmare Spinner due to fluff reasons. There's really not much I can do about that. It's a bit dark for my character concept - I'll be a jolly prankster gnome at heart.Last edited by Qanael; 2008-09-05 at 01:18 AM.
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2008-09-05, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Illusionist tips
There is a Gnome variant in Dragon Magic that has the Dragonblood subtype. If you take that as your race, you qualify for Rapid Metamagic (which will allow Heighten Spell to be used with Uncanny Forethought). Its another feat you need to take for it, but it blows Signature Spell out of the water (and Uncanny Forethought can be used for every spell in your spellbook to boot, which makes it awesome).
TM20 is a very convincing debater. His God Wizard guides are also rather impressive.