Question about ECL and Epic level

[neochaos]

My DM thinks that races with LA (such as Drows, who have +2 LA) are considered to be an Epic "earlier" than normal, non-LA characters, and they cannot get BAB and Save bonuses after 18th level. I think he's wrong, but I cannot find official "quote" or some kind of RAW explanation. Can you guys help me prove that he's wrong, or I'm wrong? RAW/Rulebook quotes are appreciated

[BobVosh]

Epic characters-those whose character level is 21st or higher-are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters

Page 5.

21 ECL = Epic

Including LA. This is why, among many other reasons, you should buy off LA. Whatever book that is in.

[Irreverent Fool]

Page 5.

21 ECL = Epic

Including LA. This is why, among many other reasons, you should buy off LA. Whatever book that is in.

Agreed. The Level Adjustment is only relevant when the abilities provide a significant advantage. A 20th level Drow cleric does not have any significant advantage over a 20th level Human cleric, and to consider such a character to be 22nd ECL is just silly.

Edit: Actually, if you ask me that extra feat at that level is worth more than Drow's silly little spell-likes and native SR.

The rules for buying off level adjustments are in the Unearthed Arcana, iirc. You can buy one LA off for every 6 levels gained. So at 12th class level your drow would be the same as everyone else, just with a bit less xp.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The rules for buying off level adjustments are in the Unearthed Arcana, iirc. You can buy one LA off for every 6 levels gained. So at 12th class level your drow would be the same as everyone else, just with a bit less xp.

Yeah, UA, but that's not quite it. You get to start buying it off at level (LA * 3), and then... well, a bit randomly, but the levels are divisible by 3. The drow gets his bought off by level 9. For whatever reason, someone with LA +4 or more only ever gets to buy off one +1.

The rules.

Go figure about the logic. Certainly seems to me like you should be able to buy off LA +4 and higher in epic levels, at least.

[Nemoricus]

It's not a random progression. You add 3 times your current LA to your current level to find the next time you can buy it off. Repeat until you have no LA left.

+1 LA is bought off at level 3.
+2 LA is bought off at levels 6 and 9, 3*2 for the first, 6+(3*1) for the second.
+3, levels 9, 15, and 18, 3*3 for the first, 9 + (2*3) for the second, 15 + (1*3) for the last.

I believe levels 21+ are excluded from the table because it was policy to leave out epic from non-epic publications.

[NEO|Phyte]

Page 5.

21 ECL = Epic

Including LA. This is why, among many other reasons, you should buy off LA. Whatever book that is in.

Incorrect.

Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters.

"Character level" is a character’s total number of levels. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained.

LA is NOT counted in determining when you are Epic.

[namo]

NEO|Phyte has it right.

[BobVosh]

LA is NOT counted in determining when you are Epic.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

[Akimbo]

I don't see anything that says, "Use ECL instead of CL for when they become Epic" Vash. SO I don't know why you are posting.

CL determines Epic, LA is not part of CL.

[BobVosh]

To reach level 21 therefore you add the LA to the ECL to determine the exp. Of level 21. Which is when you are Epic.

[Mewtarthio]

There is a difference between Character Level and Effective Character Level. Character level is HD + class levels. ECL is LA + Character level.

[Tokiko Mima]

To reach level 21 therefore you add the LA to the ECL to determine the exp. Of level 21. Which is when you are Epic.

Just because you are using ECL to determine "how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level" doesn't mean that ECL counts as your Character Level. If it did, that would mean skill rank maximums, caster level maximums for Practiced spellcaster, and any calculation for character level would also use ECL.

ECL is only used when calculating XP required for the next level, and when setting Wealth by Level or starting wealth. ECL never counts as your level in other cases and for other purposes. It could be used as an advantage if you did things that way.

For example, imagine a wizard who makes himself a lich to push himself into Epic levels and obtain the Epic Spellcasting Feat then ressurects himself in order to use Epic spellcasting at a level where no one else has it.

[nargbop]

The way I've done it is like below, with a line devoted to each effective character level. The drow wizard doesn't get his second level until he hits the equivalent of fourth-level XP. I believe feats and ability increases go along with effective character level.
1 Drow Feat
2 Drow
3 Wizard Feat
4 Wizard
...
20 Wizard
21 Wizard Epic Feat

LA is not good for epic characters UNLESS the benefits scale. So, ordinary drow are a bad choice for going into an epic game. Instead, use a scaling race or template like half-fey that increases in goodness over time.
For instance, I persuaded my GM to let me take Spellwarped as a template. My Spell Resistance was always a consideration in battle, because it scaled with my level.

[fractic]

I believe feats and ability increases go along with effective character level.

That's not right. Feats and ability score increases go along with hitdie not ECL

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases

A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

[neochaos]

What about monsters with HDs? Does HD get counted when you determine epic level?

[fractic]

What about monsters with HDs? Does HD get counted when you determine epic level?

Yes racial HD+class levels = character level.