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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Mar 2008

    Question Question about ECL and Epic level

    My DM thinks that races with LA (such as Drows, who have +2 LA) are considered to be an Epic "earlier" than normal, non-LA characters, and they cannot get BAB and Save bonuses after 18th level. I think he's wrong, but I cannot find official "quote" or some kind of RAW explanation. Can you guys help me prove that he's wrong, or I'm wrong? RAW/Rulebook quotes are appreciated

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    Quote Originally Posted by Epic Level Handbook
    Epic characters-those whose character level is 21st or higher-are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters
    Page 5.

    21 ECL = Epic

    Including LA. This is why, among many other reasons, you should buy off LA. Whatever book that is in.
    Last edited by BobVosh; 2008-09-04 at 04:16 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Page 5.

    21 ECL = Epic

    Including LA. This is why, among many other reasons, you should buy off LA. Whatever book that is in.
    Agreed. The Level Adjustment is only relevant when the abilities provide a significant advantage. A 20th level Drow cleric does not have any significant advantage over a 20th level Human cleric, and to consider such a character to be 22nd ECL is just silly.

    Edit: Actually, if you ask me that extra feat at that level is worth more than Drow's silly little spell-likes and native SR.

    The rules for buying off level adjustments are in the Unearthed Arcana, iirc. You can buy one LA off for every 6 levels gained. So at 12th class level your drow would be the same as everyone else, just with a bit less xp.
    Last edited by Irreverent Fool; 2008-09-04 at 04:43 AM.
    On DMPCs: "Remember, nothing will spice up your campaign quicker than long descriptions of NPC’s doing spectacular stuff while the players sit around and watch." -Shamus Young, DM of the Rings
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Banned
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    Quote Originally Posted by Irreverent Fool View Post
    The rules for buying off level adjustments are in the Unearthed Arcana, iirc. You can buy one LA off for every 6 levels gained. So at 12th class level your drow would be the same as everyone else, just with a bit less xp.
    Yeah, UA, but that's not quite it. You get to start buying it off at level (LA * 3), and then... well, a bit randomly, but the levels are divisible by 3. The drow gets his bought off by level 9. For whatever reason, someone with LA +4 or more only ever gets to buy off one +1.

    The rules.

    Go figure about the logic. Certainly seems to me like you should be able to buy off LA +4 and higher in epic levels, at least.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    It's not a random progression. You add 3 times your current LA to your current level to find the next time you can buy it off. Repeat until you have no LA left.

    +1 LA is bought off at level 3.
    +2 LA is bought off at levels 6 and 9, 3*2 for the first, 6+(3*1) for the second.
    +3, levels 9, 15, and 18, 3*3 for the first, 9 + (2*3) for the second, 15 + (1*3) for the last.

    I believe levels 21+ are excluded from the table because it was policy to leave out epic from non-epic publications.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NEO|Phyte's Avatar

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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Page 5.

    21 ECL = Epic

    Including LA. This is why, among many other reasons, you should buy off LA. Whatever book that is in.
    Incorrect.

    LA is NOT counted in determining when you are Epic.
    Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    namo's Avatar

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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    NEO|Phyte has it right.
    My old characters (I don't game on this board anymore) --- Avatar by Castaras

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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    Quote Originally Posted by NEO|Phyte View Post
    LA is NOT counted in determining when you are Epic.

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by www.d20srd.org
    Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level

    To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

    Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Banned
     
    Griffon

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    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    I don't see anything that says, "Use ECL instead of CL for when they become Epic" Vash. SO I don't know why you are posting.

    CL determines Epic, LA is not part of CL.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    To reach level 21 therefore you add the LA to the ECL to determine the exp. Of level 21. Which is when you are Epic.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Mewtarthio's Avatar

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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    There is a difference between Character Level and Effective Character Level. Character level is HD + class levels. ECL is LA + Character level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    To reach level 21 therefore you add the LA to the ECL to determine the exp. Of level 21. Which is when you are Epic.
    Just because you are using ECL to determine "how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level" doesn't mean that ECL counts as your Character Level. If it did, that would mean skill rank maximums, caster level maximums for Practiced spellcaster, and any calculation for character level would also use ECL.

    ECL is only used when calculating XP required for the next level, and when setting Wealth by Level or starting wealth. ECL never counts as your level in other cases and for other purposes. It could be used as an advantage if you did things that way.

    For example, imagine a wizard who makes himself a lich to push himself into Epic levels and obtain the Epic Spellcasting Feat then ressurects himself in order to use Epic spellcasting at a level where no one else has it.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Nov 2007

    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    The way I've done it is like below, with a line devoted to each effective character level. The drow wizard doesn't get his second level until he hits the equivalent of fourth-level XP. I believe feats and ability increases go along with effective character level.
    1 Drow Feat
    2 Drow
    3 Wizard Feat
    4 Wizard
    ...
    20 Wizard
    21 Wizard Epic Feat

    LA is not good for epic characters UNLESS the benefits scale. So, ordinary drow are a bad choice for going into an epic game. Instead, use a scaling race or template like half-fey that increases in goodness over time.
    For instance, I persuaded my GM to let me take Spellwarped as a template. My Spell Resistance was always a consideration in battle, because it scaled with my level.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    Quote Originally Posted by nargbop View Post
    I believe feats and ability increases go along with effective character level.
    That's not right. Feats and ability score increases go along with hitdie not ECL

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases

    A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    What about monsters with HDs? Does HD get counted when you determine epic level?

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Question about ECL and Epic level

    Quote Originally Posted by neochaos View Post
    What about monsters with HDs? Does HD get counted when you determine epic level?
    Yes racial HD+class levels = character level.

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