[4e] Forgotten Realms manual: Clashing Impressions

[Prophaniti]

Or: How I learned to stop caring and love the art work.

Initial Disclaimer: This is written after flipping through the new FR manual exactly once. This is a statement of first impressions, not of unequivocal facts.

When I started hearing about them "upgrading" FR to 4e, I was extremely skeptical on the matter. Why couldn't they direct their Executive Meddling energies at Ebberon?! When I read some of what they planned on doing, I felt entirely validated for that skepticism. It was just a gratuitous, random, and, I felt, completely unjustified destruction of a setting I've known and loved for a long time, and replacing it with something Strange and Horribly Different wearing its label like a cloak. A cloak made of the flayed hide of my beloved setting.

Then the other day, while going through a bookstore, I chanced upon a copy of the new manual. Being bored and in no real hurry I thought, "What the hell?", picked it up and started flipping though it.

My immediate impression: This is really good work. The art is stunning, imaginative and inspiring. Descriptive ideas and wonderful setting gooey goodness abounded, speaking of the abundance of magic, the unexplored mysteries, etc. I was force to draw parallels between this manual and the 3.5one sitting on my shelf at home. I did not like the taste of some of these comparisons, but being who I am, I forced myself to admit them.

One that stood out immediately was in the descriptions of the various NPCs. In my old FR manual, at least half the entry of nearly every NPC is taken up by stat blocks, detailing in no uncertain terms what that character can and cannot do. In this new one, stat blocks are very conspicuously absent, the space being taken up by explanations of the character's motivations and goals. There are others, but this, to me, was the most glaring and hard to swallow.

It was not all good, though. Reading through the part about how the world of Toril got to where it is 'now' was just as annoying and sickening as reading about it online. The Spellplague? Might've been impressive if we hadn't just had the Time of Troubles, and if Mystra hadn't already died multiple times. Seriously, why wasn't there a Spellplague before?*
*This is rhetorical. I'm sure they came up with an answer, and I'm sure I'll think it's stupid.

I could probably wax eloquent some more about the good and the bad, but I think I'll stop there after hitting those two key features. My Final Impression: It does seem now that they have kept the important parts of my FR intact; The feel of the setting, the atmosphere and so forth, are largely the same to me, and the new artwork in much better than whoever they got to do the last batch. The "historical" changes are still just as grating, but fortunately they're quite easy to deal with. By ignoring them.

I may pick up this manual, which will be the first and likely only 4e book that I would feel good about spending my money on. If I ever have money to spend again, that is. Stupid college fees. True, I will ignore all the changes to the timeline and history, playing my FR games in the good ole' days. However, the descriptiveness, the ambience, the artwork (did I mention that yet?)... All of these are really stellar work, much moreso IMO than the other 4e books so far. At the very least, it will probably have a place on my shelf as eye candy and an idea generator.

How about you, playgrounders? What are your thoughts on the matter of the new Forgotten Realms?

[Starbuck_II]

.

I may pick up this manual, which will be the first and likely only 4e book that I would feel good about spending my money on. If I ever have money to spend again, that is. Stupid college fees. True, I will ignore all the changes to the timeline and history, playing my FR games in the good ole' days. However, the descriptiveness, the ambience, the artwork (did I mention that yet?)... All of these are really stellar work, much moreso IMO than the other 4e books so far. At the very least, it will probably have a place on my shelf as eye candy and an idea generator.

How about you, playgrounders? What are your thoughts on the matter of the new Forgotten Realms?

College Fees so no have money right now, but I'm interested. I never really was into FR in 3.0/5, but the spellplague sounds interesting.

So I don't know till I actually read it.

[Isomenes]

Personally, I find FR odious, derivative, and trite, so my position on it hasn't changed--I'm still ignoring the fluff. (From a larger perspective I can't tolerate any of the D&D in-built fluff; some can and that's cool. I far prefer to hand-whip my own.) But, I can and shall treat the FRPG as a new splatbook filled with toys for my amusement.

Though, I haven't read close to every book, so I'm happy to get a different perspective--are there any particular books that stand out among the FR library that you'd recommend as worth the read?

[Kurald Galain]

But, I can and shall treat the FRPG as a new splatbook filled with toys for my amusement.

If that's what you want, let me point out that the book is about 5% crunch, 95% fluff (as befits the main book to a campaign setting).

[EvilRoeSlade]

I was under the impression that there wasn't even 5% crunch.

[hamishspence]

A few items, a few monsters (mostly unique ones, some generic ones) statted out for DMs to use. Thats crunch.

[Isomenes]

If that's what you want, let me point out that the book is about 5% crunch, 95% fluff (as befits the main book to a campaign setting).

I did say FRPG, which isn't out yet. I'll probably just glance at the FRCS in a bookstore like the OP.

[hamishspence]

Is player's guide 5% crunch? How do you know if you do not have it? or did you get it early?

[Isomenes]

Is player's guide 5% crunch? How do you know if you do not have it? or did you get it early?

It's an educated guess given the previews, but I suspect it will be considerably more than 5% crunch. (Then again, it could be like the movie trailers, where 95% of the best parts of the movie are distilled into 5% of the running time and aired to lure moviegoers into the unsuspecting trap.) But honestly, the Swordmage and Channel Divinity feats are enough for me.

[Kurald Galain]

Is player's guide 5% crunch? How do you know if you do not have it? or did you get it early?

Ah, no. The presently-out campaign guide (which the OP was referring to) is 5% crunch. The upcoming-this-month player's guide will certainly be a lot more than that.

[LibraryOgre]

I could probably wax eloquent some more about the good and the bad, but I think I'll stop there after hitting those two key features. My Final Impression: It does seem now that they have kept the important parts of my FR intact; The feel of the setting, the atmosphere and so forth, are largely the same to me, and the new artwork in much better than whoever they got to do the last batch.

I disagree. To repost my note about it on the Palladium Message Board...

I would like this a lot better if it wasn't called Forgotten Realms.

One of the core ideas behind 4e's Forgotten Realms is that there was a somewhat parallel world, Abeir, to Toril, and that these two worlds collided with great metaphysical violence, with chunks of Toril being replaced by chunks of Abeir. This coincided with a magical plague that altered the face of magic, destroyed large chunks of the landscape, and left many people with magical powers called "spellscars".

If this wasn't the Forgotten Realms, an established world with a large fanbase, that would be really, really cool; in fact, when TSR did it as "Birthright", on the world of Aebrynis and the continent of Cerillia, it was a cool idea, and one that maintains a fan community. Resurrecting "Birthright" would've been very popular with fans of the setting, and would've included many things that they did to the Realms... including magical powers for random people, areas of land that are corrupted by the death of ancient gods, and the growth of vast empires (and many smaller ones).

However, it was done to the Forgotten Realms, and not a resurrection of Birthright, or the creation of a new world. They've killed off large numbers of Toril's deities (including most of the popular and powerful ones; Lathander, Helm, Tyr, Mystra, Azuth, even the good drow goddess, Ellistrae*, and the god of rogue male drow Vhaerun*, are the ones that come to mind). They declared the Blood War, which frequently touched on Abeir-Toril, ended by fiat of an archdevil-turned deity, despite the presence of multiple quasi-deities on both sides for millennia. Thay went from a magocracy to necrocracy. They partially drained the Sea of Fallen Stars (somehow leaving Sembia and Cormyr's seaport towns seaports, while turning the Pirate Isles into the Pirate Isle), re-established Netheril, and destroyed four major "exotic" nations (Lantan, Lurien, Halruaa and Nimbral are all destroyed; Lantan and Lurien by natural disaster, Halruaa and Nimbral under the accumulated might of their magics collapsing... a fate which Netheril, run by quasi-undead wizards, avoided). They redefined the very name of the planet, from Abeir-Toril, which was frequently shortened to Toril, to simply Toril, with Abeir as a never-before-mentioned sister planet.

I can understand the desire to advance the timeline by a hundred years; it kills off many of the mortal NPCs, allowing them a bit more free hand with who is where. And that's going to result in some shifting of political boundaries... that the Ffolk and Northmen started to culturally merge in the Moonshaes was more or less inevitable after the war against The Beast led by Tristan Kendrick. That Amn would annex an island makes sense, and that the Oskabyrr dynasty in Cormyr would grind on is only natural. But that lizardfolk, naga, and yuan-ti would create even a nominal nation together... in the north? That Wheloon would become a city-sized prison because, apparently, all of her inhabitants were followers of Shar? That Sembia would become a vassal state of Netheril? An accumulation of changes like this makes the new version less palatable to fans of the old, an leaves me thinking "This would be a cool idea... if I didn't already like the setting that was in place before they radically changed it."

Of course, you'll say, I can continue to play in the old setting, which is true; the classes of 4e have enough in common with the previous games that you can play 4e in even a pre-Time of Troubles setting. However, that you can do that, easily, is much the point... there was no need to make radical changes in a beloved world in order to play 4e in it. The changes, especially the Spellplague and it's side effects, become "just because", leaving the new material far less useful to those who prefer the old world. Opening a new world, or re-activating one that has many of the features they've included, doesn't alienate old fans.

*I know these were killed off in novels prior to the official launch of 4e; however, if you consider their population, the gods of Faerun have an astonishingly high murder rate.

[Prophaniti]

Though, I haven't read close to every book, so I'm happy to get a different perspective--are there any particular books that stand out among the FR library that you'd recommend as worth the read?

Well, I haven't read them all either, but pretty much anything by Ed Greenwood or RA Salvatore is going to be worth your time. I also liked the Avatar series, though I haven't read the last one. The Cleric Quintet, one by Salvatore, is really excellent, I recommend it more than the Drizz't series.

EDIT: Oh yes, and the Pools series, that one was good too.

I disagree. To repost my note about it on the Palladium Message Board...

Noted, and understood. Like I said, my writing is based on a first impression from one reading. Likely I will find more I don't like as I get into the details. I was simply surprised to find so much I do like in it, and to see such interesting contrasts with the 3.5 FRCS, that's all.

[Mando Knight]

One of the core ideas behind 4e's Forgotten Realms is that there was a somewhat parallel world, Abeir, to Toril, and that these two worlds collided with great metaphysical violence, with chunks of Toril being replaced by chunks of Abeir. This coincided with a magical plague that altered the face of magic, destroyed large chunks of the landscape, and left many people with magical powers called "spellscars".

If this wasn't the Forgotten Realms, an established world with a large fanbase, that would be really, really cool;

Just the idea of two parallel worlds colliding made me think of two Earth-like planets smashing into each other, spewing heated rock and annihilating everything that their inhabitants hold dear...

I'm getting the FR PG for the Swordmage, mostly. Anything else that's good that comes with it is a sweet bonus... like buying a Happy Meal for the French Fries, and finding a cheeseburger and a toy in the bag, too.

[ZekeArgo]

I've honestly never enjoyed the FR setting... it always seemed to me to encompass what Joss Wheaton described as an austere setting, as if every place you go evokes a voice over booming "Behold, for theres was a forbidden city."

I can kind of understand where FR fans are coming from with disliking all of the changes, but heres the thing: what would be the preferable alternative? A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted? Big shakeups allow *new* heroes to step into the limelight, which was one of my biggest complaints against FR: there were so many crazy NPCs that there was honestly little justification for lower level ones.

Will probably check out the book, but I'm far more interested to see what happens with the other CSs that will be coming out.

[FoE]

A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted?

Isn't Drizzt still around? He's a drow, after all.

[Edea]

Meh, put me in the 'give me the Swordmage and the other crunch; you can keep the rest of it' group.

[Killersquid]

I've honestly never enjoyed the FR setting... it always seemed to me to encompass what Joss Wheaton described as an austere setting, as if every place you go evokes a voice over booming "Behold, for theres was a forbidden city."

I can kind of understand where FR fans are coming from with disliking all of the changes, but heres the thing: what would be the preferable alternative? A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted? Big shakeups allow *new* heroes to step into the limelight, which was one of my biggest complaints against FR: there were so many crazy NPCs that there was honestly little justification for lower level ones.

Will probably check out the book, but I'm far more interested to see what happens with the other CSs that will be coming out.

No one likes Elminster, even the FR fans. Anyway, the point of FR was not that PCs did everything. The world had politics, people in it over the 2 decades its been out, and history. I seriously don't get that argument, where the PCs NEED to be the heroes in the game. Most FR haters try to make an argument with that and the Sues in the series, but never actually pull out any good points.

[Cristo Meyers]

Isn't Drizzt still around? He's a drow, after all.

Pretty sure I saw him the last time I looked through the book yesterday.

'Course, wasn't the rumor that the higher-ups wouldn't let him get killed off?

To me, the damage wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it could've been. But on the other hand, I was under the impression that they were destroying everything and turning FR into some kind of post-magical apololypic setting full of scorched badlands and strange mutated creatures.

[Morty]

I've honestly never enjoyed the FR setting... it always seemed to me to encompass what Joss Wheaton described as an austere setting, as if every place you go evokes a voice over booming "Behold, for theres was a forbidden city."

I can kind of understand where FR fans are coming from with disliking all of the changes, but heres the thing: what would be the preferable alternative? A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted? Big shakeups allow *new* heroes to step into the limelight, which was one of my biggest complaints against FR: there were so many crazy NPCs that there was honestly little justification for lower level ones.

Will probably check out the book, but I'm far more interested to see what happens with the other CSs that will be coming out.

There's a vast gulf between "changes in the setting necessary to avoid stagnation and make ground for different ruleset" and "turning the entire setting upside the head just for the heck of it so it's something entirely different now". I also fail to see how is lots of high-level NPCs an objectively bad thing.
That said, while I like 3ed FR, as non-trendy and uncool it makes me, I'm indifferent towards 4ed FR, because I won't play 4ed anyway, so while the changes are mostly bad, what do I care?

[KIDS]

I was always very fond of Forgotten Realms so, even while I'm annoyed at the Spellplague forced upon all of us, I'm glad to hear that most of the flavor managed the transition. I'll definitely check it out, thanks for the review!

p.s. before someone tries to classify this as "with us or against us" as it's usual on the forums, I like Eberron and Greyhawk just as well.

[LibraryOgre]

I can kind of understand where FR fans are coming from with disliking all of the changes, but heres the thing: what would be the preferable alternative? A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted? Big shakeups allow *new* heroes to step into the limelight, which was one of my biggest complaints against FR: there were so many crazy NPCs that there was honestly little justification for lower level ones.

I would probably have kept them moving the timeline forward 100 years; that allows a removal of most of the previous NPCs, giving the designers a bit freer hand, but removed the Spellplague and most of the deific deaths. I would have ascended Elminster to godhood, as well as Fzoul Chembryl (I liked ascending him; I thought it was appropriate, and it's long past the time that the Dirty Old Mage was forced to assume the mantle of Godhood). I would've kept the system of Zulkirs in Thay but, since there's no more "schools of wizardry", per se, I would've simply made them Epic Wizards who have strong political followings, and are, by tradition, kept at 8.

Really, once you stop killing all the Gods and remove the Spellplague, the rest of the "100 Years Later" steps into line.

[Areswargod139]

Pretty sure I saw him the last time I looked through the book yesterday.

'Course, wasn't the rumor that the higher-ups wouldn't let him get killed off?

To me, the damage wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it could've been. But on the other hand, I was under the impression that they were destroying everything and turning FR into some kind of post-magical apololypic setting full of scorched badlands and strange mutated creatures.

You have the 4th ed FR book, Cristo? I didn't know that you bought into 4th ed.

[Cristo Meyers]

You have the 4th ed FR book, Cristo? I didn't know that you bought into 4th ed.

Was at the waldenbooks you got the KoTOR campaign source from, was paging through FR 4th ed since I had nothin better to do

[Oracle_Hunter]

Really, once you stop killing all the Gods and remove the Spellplague, the rest of the "100 Years Later" steps into line.

I would also rename the City of Splendors "Neo-Waterdeep" and have the Church of Gond ride around on clockwork horses

[bosssmiley]

Much as I'm a Forgotten Realms unappeasable (I hate the omnipresent iconics, but I also dislike the Azerothication of Faerun) I will concede there are a couple of things that the 4E FRCG did right:

• Getting rid of the obvious Stargate/Egypt copypaste and replacing it with the ancient, purple-obsessed wizard-kings of Imaskar.
• The 2nd Age of Skyfire down in Calimshan. If you're going to have pretendy Arabia you must have genies!
• Turning can't get away with nuthin Thay into the Forbidden Plateau of Leng
• Filling up some of the empty space in the Western Tediumlands
• Turning Erlkazar into something other than "You fill it in"
• The Aboleth Helicarrier (!!!)

Now, if only Raumathar and Narfell were to make a significant comeback...

[Prophaniti]

No one likes Elminster, even the FR fans. Anyway, the point of FR was not that PCs did everything. The world had politics, people in it over the 2 decades its been out, and history. I seriously don't get that argument, where the PCs NEED to be the heroes in the game. Most FR haters try to make an argument with that and the Sues in the series, but never actually pull out any good points.

*small voice* I like Elminster...
I'd never include him in a FR campaign though.

Otherwise, I agree with you. FR has never been a setting where the PCs are automatically assumed to be the best of the best, and this is entirely a good thing, IMO. There's always a bigger fish, as they say, and I enjoy campaign settings and games that keep this in mind.

[Colmarr]

*small voice* I like Elminster...
I'd never include him in a FR campaign though.

Otherwise, I agree with you. FR has never been a setting where the PCs are automatically assumed to be the best of the best, and this is entirely a good thing, IMO. There's always a bigger fish, as they say, and I enjoy campaign settings and games that keep this in mind.

I'm curious. If you never use the bigger fish, what is the point in having them?

And if you do use the bigger fish, how do you stop your campaign revolving around missions that the bigger fish don't want to handle?

My understanding of the problem with NPCs in FR is not that they're "bigger fish"; it's that the PCs are minnows and the NPCs are whales. The "bigger fish" are simply too big.

[Prophaniti]

I'm curious. If you never use the bigger fish, what is the point in having them?

And if you do use the bigger fish, how do you stop your campaign revolving around missions that the bigger fish don't want to handle?

In the case of Elminster specifically... I more meant I like the character himself, from the novels. On big NPCs in general, they are included for two reasons:
1) To show that your party is not the first ever to be brave enough or skilled enough to set foot out the door and accomplish something.
2) They justify the fact that every major city in the world hasn't been overrun by the myriad monsters with superior stats and abilities than the average human (or elf or dwarf).

How do I stop the campaign from revolving around these "whales"? Through inaction, rather than action. These big-shot NPCs are not involved because I don't want them to be. If, for some reason, the campaign enters territory they are normally "in charge" of, or I need justification for their absence for some reason, it is not difficult at all to come up with it. These are people with lots of responsibilities and/or interests, I'm sure they've got a lot on their plate. Of course, you can include such NPCs in the campaign without giving them the spotlight (unless the party gets lazy and keeps sitting there waiting for them to act [this happened with my group once], in which case I blame the party, not the NPC).

Bottom line, though, is simply intelligent campaign structure. Small-time heroes get small-time jobs. Big-time heroes get big-time jobs.

My understanding of the problem with NPCs in FR is not that they're "bigger fish"; it's that the PCs are minnows and the NPCs are whales. The "bigger fish" are simply too big.

That depends on the level of said NPCs. If they're (roughly) level 5 or lower, you bet they're minnows. See above about small-time heroes. There is no reason these people should be in charge of saving the world, should the world need saving (which it doesn't always. Impending Armageddon is such an overdone plot device.)

Once they get to higher levels, the difference is much less pronounced, if it is there at all. Most of the statted NPCs in FR are lvl 15 or lower, only a few big names get to be epic.

Many people ask "why don't the NPCs handle X?" about FR. Really a better question is "why do the PCs need to handle X?". If you can answer that, then you're on the right track. I've never had trouble coming up with a decent in-game reason to justify the fact that I do indeed want the PCs to handle it, not Elminster. It doesn't require any more effort than coming up with "X" in the first place.

[EvilElitest]

I've honestly never enjoyed the FR setting... it always seemed to me to encompass what Joss Wheaton described as an austere setting, as if every place you go evokes a voice over booming "Behold, for theres was a forbidden city."

I can kind of understand where FR fans are coming from with disliking all of the changes, but heres the thing: what would be the preferable alternative?

Hating FR seems to be a fad now adays. And it is much like cultural xenphobia actually, because most haters don't even understand what they are hating, because they are basing it only off sterotypes and vague impressions rather than any actual fault of the setting, or because hating FR is what the cool kids are diong

Anyways, weather you like FR or not, violating a setting is wrong. Imagine if this was done to Ebberon. Really, actually try to empathize with people here, imagine if a setting you liked was ruined due an excessive use of exucative meddling and a massive series of recones

A static, unchanging environment where elminster and his harem wave their hands and stop everything? Where drizzt *constantly* whines about not being accepted? Big shakeups allow *new* heroes to step into the limelight, which was one of my biggest complaints against FR: there were so many crazy NPCs that there was honestly little justification for lower level ones.

This doesn't make sense, there is really, nothing, absolutely nothing that justifies your statements. Old FR was perfectly fine in allowing new heros to come onto the stage. Just like your complaint, it is based off a sterotype, and unfounded one without backing.

Answer this
1) In the FR setting books, is there anything forcing you to make hte Eliminster and Drizzt and what not the center of every game. Really, find me a section, because both of those characters hang out in their own respetive regions.
2) Is there anything that keeps PCs from becoming powerful. Really, anything in the setting that pervents this
3) How does the setting make things useless for Low level players? Really prove it



OP, read the 3E FR setting. This one only a portion of the fluff and is so reconned that it has violated most of the old elements of the game
from
EE

[Isomenes]

EE, I think the problem is that it's silly to have too much invested in a setting. It's fic. It's not even proper fiction; it's just people writing what-ifs and riffing on their pet concepts and themes. And that's fine, but there's no point in getting bent out of shape just because something you held to be a certain way no longer is. It's just fic. You go with what is. And I suppose if you are dissatisfied enough, and if enough people agree with your dissatisfaction, you can fork the fandom.

It'd be neat to see an "alternate" FR produced by those who are minded to do so, but the new terms are rather prohibitive. Alas.