Order of the Scribble, for your consideration

[ocato]

So, I've been fussing with this in my head, and I can't make heads or tails of it. Girard Draketooth, Illusionist and Tracker, was able to create the most powerful illusions ever devised (according to redcloak). He could track and used two swords (or some similar configuration). In the strip where the Order of the Scribble breaks up, he is seen preparing to defend himself with his swords first. So I've been wondering how to reconcile these facts. He's got to be a good enough caster to throw the "most powerful illusions ever devised," and track and two weapon fighting could easily be feats he'd picked up... but wouldn't they be incredibly weak then? Or, if he grabbed some levels in, say, Ranger or Fighter, his casting would've been lowered. So, was he just an obscenely high level character (22+), or some combination of classes and ideas that I can't readily prepare in my mind. I know Rich says that there doesn't have to be any set hardbook representation for his characters, but this has been driving me crazy.

Other facts to consider, the order of the stick was probably L8 or 9 when the strip starts, suggesting that they were rolled sometime during 3.0, not 3.5 (which rules out the beguiler, I think). So it is incredibly possible that the Order of the Scribble was from 2nd edition. Which I know nothing about.

[Raroy]

In 2nd edition, multiclassing was a lot less gimped(It was practically encouraged). So yes, it is most probable that the order of the scribble took place before 3.x.

[ocato]

I read up on 2ed and how multiclassing worked and I feel much more confident about how the character would've worked. So, for fun, how would you make such a character in 3.5?

Optimize, Optimize my pretties

*cackle*

[DarknessLord]

Gestalt?

Wizard//Two-weapon Ranger?

Order of the Scribble was a much higher power campaign. XD

[chiasaur11]

It's a given. Remember the discontinued monsters?

Imprisoned by one of the members of the OoTS(cribble) no less.

[TeeEl]

Battle Sorcerer with Draconic Heritage (bronze) gets you medium BAB and Survival as a bonus class skill while still keeping full sorcerer casting levels. Might be a decent start.

[monty]

(Wizard/Sorcerer) 20/Ranger X. There we go. Not optimal, but more than enough to win the game (really, once you get Epic Spellcasting, nothing else matters much).

[Chronos]

They couldn't have been 2nd edition. They came onto the scene after Xykon, and it's very significant that Xykon is a sorcerer (which didn't exist in 2nd edition), not a wizard. So they're 3.0.

And in 3.0, almost everything you got from the ranger class, you got with a single level. So he's very likely to be a ranger 1/caster 20. I don't think there's enough evidence to say whether he was a wizard or sorcerer, but either way, he'd be eligible for epic spells (which is where the real action is at).

[Behold_the_Void]

They couldn't have been 2nd edition. They came onto the scene after Xykon, and it's very significant that Xykon is a sorcerer (which didn't exist in 2nd edition), not a wizard. So they're 3.0.

And in 3.0, almost everything you got from the ranger class, you got with a single level. So he's very likely to be a ranger 1/caster 20. I don't think there's enough evidence to say whether he was a wizard or sorcerer, but either way, he'd be eligible for epic spells (which is where the real action is at).

I think the Giant more or less ignores time/edition consistencies. Haley's father was a 1st or 2nd ed thief, wasn't he? He's nowhere near as old as Xykon.

[Tempest Fennac]

I like the Battle Sorcerer idea for re-creating him in 3.5 Edition (I'll need to see what that Heritage feat does, though). I agree with Behold the Void about te continuity here.

EDIT: When did he so anything that repelled people like that? Also, one problem with using a Wizard is the risk of Arcane Spell Failure.

[Morty]

Another thing that makes it impossible for Order of the Scribble to be statted out in 2nd Ed is that Serini was considering multiclassing to paladin, which would be impossible in 2ed, IIRC.

[Kurald Galain]

Another thing that makes it impossible for Order of the Scribble to be statted out in 2nd Ed is that Serini was considering multiclassing to paladin, which would be impossible in 2ed, IIRC.

Serini is not, however, known for her stellar intelligence.

It's an odd mixture. Kraagor couldn't be 2nd ed since barbarians didn't exist back then; however, the argument about Girard above sounds plausible. And yet they are older than Haley's first-edition daddy, and younger than third-edition Xykon. Overall, presumably not all of the world converted to new editions at the same moment.

[Tempest Fennac]

I think I remember someone on the Class and Geekary thread mentioning a Barbarian warrior kit from the 2nd Edition which Kraagor could have used. What makes you think Serini is unintelligent? I don't recall seeing enough of her to know whether she has descent Int or not.

[Kurald Galain]

What makes you think Serini is unintelligent?

The fact that every time we've seen her (or read her diary) she acts like a total airhead.

[Starbuck_II]

The fact that every time we've seen her (or read her diary) she acts like a total airhead.

Airheads aren't unintelligent: that would be Average Int but low wisdom.

[AstralFire]

I'm thinking Ranger 3/Beguiler 7/Eldritch Knight 10 or some variation that is more thoroughly optimized.

Oh, and Arby's. Also thinking that.

[busterswd]

I've always thought of Gerard as a bard. For example, he's got a high charisma (enough to make Serini get a crush on him). OotS, as it pertains to Elan at least, tends to treat Bard magic as illusionary.

The other possibility is that he's just poorly optimized. Maybe he's an Illusionist with cross class skills who wasted feats on two weapon fighting, or maybe he picked up a couple ranger/skill monkey levels and dumped a few into there.

The other possibility is the term "tracker' referring to a spot/gather information ability, not the survival skill.

[Tempest Fennac]

I assumed the term "tracker" was refering to Rangers, assuming that Belkar's first LG opposite was also a Ranger. Bards never get really powerful magic, so I'm assuming that he was a full-caster (the commend about Serini having high enough Cha to become a Paladin could suggest that the 2nd Edition's stat requirements were being used, and back then Illusionists needed 16 Dex to qualify for the class, which would fit with TWF).

[monty]

He couldn't be a bard, at least not without a full-casting PrC, because he had epic magic.

Maybe he just carried around two swords to look cool. Fashion over function.

[Kurald Galain]

Airheads aren't unintelligent: that would be Average Int but low wisdom.

Stellar wisdom, then. The point still stands: just because Serini says she wanted to multi-class into paladin doesn't mean that she's in fact capable of doing that. Witness the order's reaction.

[Tempest Fennac]

Kraagor could have been suggesting that she wasn't Lawful. Were there any 2nd Edition classes which used Cha to cast spells at all?

[Chronos]

Further evidence for them being third: Serini is introduced in the Crayons of Time as being a rogue, not a thief. Technically, thieves and bards were both considered "rogues" in second edition, but it wasn't a commonly-used terminology.

I think the Giant more or less ignores time/edition consistencies. Haley's father was a 1st or 2nd ed thief, wasn't he? He's nowhere near as old as Xykon.

Are you sure? Maybe he's part celestial .

In any event, though, it's not really important that he be consistent with anyone else, since he's never really interacted with anyone in a rules-sensitive way. But Xykon has fought two members of the Order of the Scribble, so they had to be the same edition. Speaking of which fight, Lirian cast Shapechange, which wasn't available to 2nd edition druids.

[Tempest Fennac]

Couldn't Lirrian and Durokon (if not everyone else) have been updated to the 3rd Edition at some point after being made using earlier rules?

[Kurald Galain]

Kraagor could have been suggesting that she wasn't Lawful. Were there any 2nd Edition classes which used Cha to cast spells at all?

No - "using a stat to cast a spell" is a 3rd edition thing.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks. How did casting work in the 2nd Edition? I'm just curious about how it was handled if stats weren't used. Also, were Save DCs variable at all?

[kjones]

Stats were used to cast spells - you needed to have a casting stat of 10 + spell level in order to cast. But saving throws were fixed, and depended solely on the class and level of the target.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks. Wasn't Con used for System Shock and being revived as well? (The rules look confusing.)

[Jayabalard]

Kraagor couldn't be 2nd ed since barbarians didn't exist back then; however, the argument about Girard above sounds plausible

1e AD&D had barbarians and allowed half elves to be fighter/wizards, and might have allowed ranger/wizards, or ranger/illusionists (I can't recall). Plus, 1e and 2e were like 99% compatible, and quite a few people played 2e games with the 1e material, including Unearthed Arcana (which is where the 1e Barbarian is from).

And yet they are older than Haley's first-edition daddy, and younger than third-edition Xykon.

Perhaps there's more relevant backstory in some of the offline material that gives their ages, but I'm not entirely sure where you're drawing these from.

Xykon was not yet a lich when he killed Eugene's master as far as I can tell. He looks pretty fleshy, and not too old at the time. Eugene is a similar age to Shojo, who is at least 2 generations (and maybe 3 or 4) younger than Soon, so it's not unreasonable to assume that the scribble could be older than Xykon.

No - "using a stat to cast a spell" is a 3rd edition thing.

Not so, wisdom was used for clerics while int was used for wizards in 1e AD&D and even in BD&D for determining bonus spells and spells knowable (AD&D wizard or illusionist).

Nobody cast using charisma back then, though 1e AD&D paladins might have had some powers based off of it (they needed a 17 minimum iirc)

Thanks. Wasn't Con used for System Shock and being revived as well? (The rules look confusing.)

Yes; I'm not sure how the system shock part is confusing, since it's in the beginning of the book where it talks about the bonuses from con.

Another thing that makes it impossible for Order of the Scribble to be statted out in 2nd Ed is that Serini was considering multiclassing to paladin, which would be impossible in 2ed, IIRC.

I think with the Default rules that's true, but I seem to vaguely recall something that allowed multiclassing into paladin even back in 1e/2e, something like a the prestige paladin. Matthew also referenced something about that in one of the D&D Grognard threads.

[Tempest Fennac]

I only glanced over the rules the other day (I was mainly thinking of other rules when I said that to be honest). Start of Darkness gives us some ideas about the Order of the Scribble's ages.

Minor SoD spoiler:

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It doesn't say how old Xykon exactly was when he killedFyron, but Eugene described im as being around 60, and Xykon was in his early 70s when he met Redcloak. The 3rd Edition rules were being used at that point.

[Kurald Galain]

Not so, wisdom was used for clerics while int was used for wizards in 1e AD&D and even in BD&D for determining bonus spells and spells knowable (AD&D wizard or illusionist).

Only just barely. "17 wis to cast 6th-level spells or quest spells, and 18 wis to cast 7th-level spells, and otherwise 9 wis minimum for being a cleric" is a far cry from "minimum wis of 10+spell level, which also decides your saving throws, which means that every cleric effectively needs a high wisdom ASAP". I don't recall ever seeing terms like "a <class> casts spells based on his <statistic>" earlier than 3E.

I'm AFB but I believe only gnomes could be an anything/illusionist. But it would seem to me that Girard is a human who dual-classes, rather than multi-classes. He doesn't seem like a gnome or part-elf to me.

Minor SoD spoiler:

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I believe the point of the first pages of SOD is that Xykon, age 16 or so, is a sorcerer as opposed to Xavian, who is a wizard. This difference didn't exist prior to 3E.