Non-DMM Clerics

[Criz Reborn]

How come I cant find much info on clerics outside of the CoDZillla? All I want is to pick out a couple feats and maybe read up on some prestige classes and/or variant features to help me make my groups Cleric!

[ocato]

Why come you not clearly describe what you am wanting so we may be helping at you?

[MeklorIlavator]

How come I cant find much info on clerics outside of the CoDZillla? All I want is to pick out a couple feats and maybe read up on some prestige classes and/or variant features to help me make my groups Cleric!

Couple questions you need to answer:
A) Edition(I assume it's 3.5, but you should make it clear).
B) Books/other rescources avaible
C) Composition of the party
D) Level you're at and the target level range you'll be playing it
E) What you want the Cleric to do. You really don't give enough info here for anything more than general suggestions.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Radiant Servant of Pelor. Happy?

[monty]

Even without DMM Persist, Divine Favor is pretty good, although it has a really short duration. General strategy is buff the party up as necessary and then go smash stuff. Try to avoid healing in battle unless it's desperate - often, killing the thing that hurt them is better than getting rid of the hurt.

[Criz Reborn]

Well I was more complaining than anything but I guess I might as well just take any ideas thrown out.

Campaign will go from ~1-15
3.5, Psionics and ToB banned
Large party, all roles covered (even have a bard) but a bit melee heavy
Cleric will probably be party's only healer
Rolled Scores: 18 18 16 16 15 12

Just looking for ideas/interesting builds. Nothing too cheesy

[monty]

Psionics and ToB banned

I always hate seeing that...

[Criz Reborn]

I always hate seeing that...

Me too. My DM is pretty old and is one of those that thinks that martial classes should start to take a back seat to casters at later levels. I dont know why he wont allow psionics though.

[kpenguin]

With a lot of heavy melee, how about an archer cleric? Play an elf and get the Elf Domain from FRCS to net the Point-Blank Shot feat and a free proficiency with a longbow. Use your feat at level one to get Precise Shot. Put those eighteens into wisdom and constiution (your con will go down to 16), those 16s into dexterity and charisma (your dex will go up to 18), that 15 into strength (to get bonus damage w/ a composite longbow), and that 12 into Int (which will be your dump)

[Jack_Simth]

Well I was more complaining than anything but I guess I might as well just take any ideas thrown out.

Campaign will go from ~1-15
3.5, Psionics and ToB banned
Large party, all roles covered (even have a bard) but a bit melee heavy
Cleric will probably be party's only healer
Rolled Scores: 18 18 16 16 15 12

Just looking for ideas/interesting builds. Nothing too cheesy

Do note:
Cheese is relative, and generally, cheese is only annoying when it's personal cheese.

That is, the Cleric that uses Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) for party-buffs (Mass Lesser Vigor, Prayer, Bless, and similar) isn't generally going to be considered cheesy (although it might make the DM nervous), while the Cleric that uses Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) for personal buffs (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, and similar) is going to be considered very cheesy.

Oh, and in a melee-heavy party, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) Mass Lesser Vigor gives the melee characters a very nice leg-up - they can now do their shtick all day, needing just a few minutes down-time to fully recuperate. The casters don't get that.

[ocato]

Look at the Imbued Healing feat from Complete Champion. While not something to build your character around, some of the bonuses it gives make wonderful perks for a combat buffer/melee-y cleric (which with your stats, you could pull of epicly).

[Criz Reborn]

With a lot of heavy melee, how about an archer cleric? Play an elf and get the Elf Domain from FRCS to net the Point-Blank Shot feat and a free proficiency with a longbow. Use your feat at level one to get Precise Shot. Put those eighteens into wisdom and constiution (your con will go down to 16), those 16s into dexterity and charisma (your dex will go up to 18), that 15 into strength (to get bonus damage w/ a composite longbow), and that 12 into Int (which will be your dump)

Wouldn't it be easier to take Zen Archery to add wish to ranged attacks? Cuts down on MAD a bit and I can still wear heavy armor

[imperialspectre]

The only thing Zen Archery changes is putting the 15 in DEX and 16 in STR, so you get the full +3 mod on composite longbow attacks and any off-the-cuff melee stuff you need to do. It does make you more SAD, but you still need bonus damage and such. Whether that's worth a feat is up to you.

[kpenguin]

Wouldn't it be easier to take Zen Archery to add wish to ranged attacks? Cuts down on MAD a bit and I can still wear heavy armor

You have two 18s, two 16s, a 15, and a 12. MAD is not an issue here. Feats are. Eliminating the need for Zen Archery until later when you have an exceptionally high wisdom is a plus in my book.

EDIT: Oh, and Zen Archery won't let you qualify for archery feats that have a high dex requirement.

[Keld Denar]

I like a nice enabler/caster cleric with a bit of a turning focus. Something like a human cleric6/RSoP5/SacExorcist3/Contemp1 in just about any order after 6 keeps full casting, almost full turning, gets 4 domains, and has a few other neato tricks. Focus on support/control with counterspells (dispel magic), buffs (Prayer, Recitation, Mass Conviction, etc), and battle field control (Obscuring Mist, Wall of Stone, etc). You can even be a little blasty with things like Holy Smite (clerics Glitterdust) and Radiant Assault (free widen + heighten 1 level). Both spells do a bit of damage with a nasty status effect tacked on. Great domains are Sun (duh), Purification, Good, Inquisition, and maybe even something like Strength. You could get them all from a sun god like Pholtus from the Greyhawk setting (adapt RSoP to Blinding Light of Pholtus) and commense with the righteous buttkickery.

I play a character like this in Living Greyhawk. He's currently level 12 and a ton of fun to play. Drops some all day buffs like Magic Vestiments, or GMW if needed, and feeds the party with a Hero's Feast for breakfast. When battle looks near, he drops a Battlemagic Perception(Hero's of Battle) and a Mass Conviction. He usually opens combat with a Quickened Recitation (via Lesser Rod and Purification Domain) + Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. This increases the effectiveness of the party melee by a TON. When opponents try to counter with spells, he utilizes his Ring of Greater Counterspells (with Greater Counterspell in it) and Battlemagic Perception to keep foes quit while the melee starts to do their thing. He can carve up the battlefield with a Wall of Stone or, when facing evil outsiders, tends to drop a Quickened Turn Anathema (via Rod again) followed by a turn check that hits about 20ish HD outsiders. This sends even Balors running in fright, not that he's managed to find one yet. Undead don't usually have a prayer, and he currently carries a certed "Lich Slayer" title for the destruction of one particually unfriendly lich after a spectacular explosion of lich bits and dust.

Feats to look into...Craft Wonderous, Divine Spell Power (turning synergy!), Divine Ward is nice for emergencies, Domain Spontinaity if there is something fun you want to do multiple times a day, and a few choice metamagics like Extend and Quicken.

Sure, its not as directly smashy as a DMM Divine Powah cleric, but sometimes its fun to take almost a Batmanish role and be the enabler/controller with your divine powers. That would be a role your melee-centric party would probably embrace the most.

[Tempest Fennac]

In regards to feat choices, the Pious feats and Augment Healing, http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl , could be useful (admittedly, I don't think AH works for the Vigour spells, which are much more reliable for out-of-combat healing unless you're using the nerfed Spell Compendium versions). If you end up as the only healer, Scribe Scroll would be useful for making scrolls containing spells such as Restoration and remove Blindness/Deafness which you won't use very often. Why does the DM think the warriors should take a backseat to the casters? I like the Elf Archer Cleric idea as well if someone else was willing to play as a Cleric. What sort of race are you inending on using? (Having to be an Elf could be limiting if you want to use other races.)

[Kaihaku]

Well I was more complaining than anything but I guess I might as well just take any ideas thrown out.

Campaign will go from ~1-15
3.5, Psionics and ToB banned
Large party, all roles covered (even have a bard) but a bit melee heavy
Cleric will probably be party's only healer
Rolled Scores: 18 18 16 16 15 12

Just looking for ideas/interesting builds. Nothing too cheesy

My last healer had the following build.

(1-5) Base Class was Mystic (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) which is basically an WIS-powered Divine Sorcerer who gets 1 domain instead of a familiar. Spells from that Domain count as known and as Domain spells no matter how many times you cast them. It's handy though doesn't quite match DMM.

(6-10)First Prestige Class was Combat Medic from Heroes of Battle.

(11-20)Second was Contemplative from Complete Divine, for a Cleric Radiant Servant of Pelor would be a solid substitution.

(21) Was projected to be Hierophant, but I didn't make it.

Role
The character centered entirely on buffing and healing. Actually, he made it to level 17 without hitting a single foe. I focused on mobility and defense via High DEX, mithral chain shirt, and mithral heavy shield. Yeah, no weapon. Flaws and Traits were allowed so... Quick, Plucky, Noncombatant, and Inattentive.

Key Feats

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Took this for Tumble. It's not necessary but it is extremely helpful.
Flexible Mind (Choose two skills that you have ranks in. These skills are always in-class for you from now on. Both skills receive a +1 bonus. You gain a Chaotic Aura equal to your character level. It can discerned by Detect Chaos spell or ability.)

Expeditious Dodge (+2 Dodge AC when moving over 40 ft in a round.)
Combat Casting (+4 bonus on Concentration checks to cast a spell defensively, while grappled, or while pinned.)
Steady Concentration (You can always ‘Take 10’ on Concentration checks.)
Mobile Spellcasting (You can make a special Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) to cast a spell and move as one Standard Action. You can’t use this ability to cast spells that normally take longer than a Standard Action to cast. If you fail the check, you lose the spell. You may combine the effect of this feat with casting on the defensive, by raising the DC by 5.)
(Bonus) Mobility(+4 Dodge bonus to AC vs. Attacks of Opportunity due to moving out of or within a threatened area. Any condition that could cause you to lose your Dexterity bonus to AC against an attack causes you to lose this bonus too.)
Shielded Casting(While carrying a shield, do not provoke AoOs for casting.)

Augment Healing(+2 HP healed per spell level. I actually didn't take this, it's not as useful as it sounds. However, it does make a nice boost for Close Wounds at least.)

A Useful Tactic

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Combat Medic nets you a "healer kicker" special effect that you can apply to targets of your healing spells... The three effects you can choose from are...

o Sanctuary [15 + Class Level + WIS Mod]
o Class Level to Reflex Saves
o Maximized Aid [13 Temp HP, +1 morale bonus attack and saves against fear.]

The Stabilize spell from the Spell Compendium makes this...very useful.

Sanctuary + Stabilize

The DC is significantly higher than a standard sanctuary. Throw this onto the entire party and you might be able to walk right passed your foes. Wouldn't try this very often though, DM probably would flip.

Maximized Aid + Stabilize/Mass Cure

This is a great way to bolster the troops. They generally burn through that 13 temp hp within the round so you can toss it back up the next.

Another note, Hierophant doesn't improve spellcasting but Divine Reach might be worth the dip for a less mobile healer.

I also picked up...a crafting feat.

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Craft Contingent Spell(You can make contingent any spell that you know. Crafting a contingent spell takes one day (8 hours) for each 1,000 gp in its base price (spell level x caster level x 100gp). To craft a contingent spell, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half the base price. Some spells incur extra costs in material components or XP (as noted in their descriptions), which must be paid when the contingent spell is created. See Contingent Spells, Complete Arcane.

Which was great for preemptive warding and healing. It's a cheap and intelligent way to keep partymembers up and running even when you can't reach them.

Healing? Fun?
Healer is one of the few spellcaster careers that, in my opinion, strongly benefits from spontaneous casting. You can easily learn all of the useful healing spells as well as the most useful support spells. Now, will it satisfy you to primarily be dashing around keeping people on their feet and never taking down an opponent for yourself? Probably depends on the group. I was playing in a military-style campaign with about 14 player characters. I was the primary and only full healer, it was challenging and kept me engaged. For a smaller group, it probably wouldn't be as entertaining or useful.

Good spells

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o The vigor spells are terrible for use in battle but more effective than cure spells for patching up between battles. Why roll, go for the set amount.
o Delay Death is useful until you get Monstrous Regeneration. Use these on your melee, they will thank you. I still remember the time our group's minotaur got vorpal'ed but and thanks to my casting of Monstrous Regeneration we handed his hand back to him two rounds later and he put it back on the stump, good as new.
o Mass Resist Energy is worth every casting.
o Don't waste your spell slots on neutralize poison or any number of other little specific counters, fill up on Panacea.
o Healing Lorecall makes it worthwhile to fill up on ranks of Heal.
o Close Wounds is a second level spell that will make you immensely popular. Have it prepared and, smiling, break that icy moment when a character drops to -14 with a 'Actually, you don't die. Yes, I am awesome.' It isn't as stunning the third or fourth time, but that first time... Glorious.

Ye Old Character Sheet

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If you're interested...here's most of the 'crunch'. He was a great character to play and something different from the norm. The sheets a little messy because I quit the campaign in the middle of leveling up, for reasons that had a lot to do with personalities and nothing to do with roleplaying. It's a testament that I stayed on as long as I did, given the constant OoC bickering and drama... Eh, I mean...

Mystics are spellcasters who have learned to channel divine energy without worshiping (or even acknowledging) any deity. The process of harnessing this magic if one of inner awareness and self-discovery - a private faith that leads to great magical power. Mystical energy affects only the living or the spiritual energy that leaves the body upon death.

Spells per day
0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8
6/8/8/8/6/7/7/7/4
6/8/8/8/6/7/7/7/4
Pool of Healing [Lay on Hands - 136 HP]

Name: Doctor Alastor Coventry (Andromalius)
Race: Human
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Height: 5'10"
Class: Mystic Lv. 5 / Combat Medic Lv. 5 / Contemplative Lv. 7
Age: 20
Exp: 139,030

Appearance:

11 STR +0
22 DEX +6 (17+1 [+4])
12 CON +1
22 INT +6 (17+1 [+4])
24 WIS +7 (18+2 [+4])
10 CHA +0

HP: 5d8 + 14d6 + 38 - 19 = 125
AC: 10 + Armor + Shield + Dex + Size + Misc : 10 + 7 + 4 + 6 + 0 = 27
SR: 24 (15 + class level)
Initiative: 10 = 6 (Dex) + 4 (Feat)
Speed: 60 ft (40 + 10 [boots] + 10 [divine])
Base Attack: 9/4
Melee: 7 = 9 - 2 + 0
Ranged: 15 = 9 + 6

Fort: 8 + 1 - 1 = 8
Reflex: 8 + 6 = 14
Will: 12 + 7 + 1 = 20

Weapons:

Armor:
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt: +7 AC, Max Dex + 6, Armor Check 0, ASF 10%, Speed 30, 12.5 lbs
+2 Mithral Heavy Shield: +4 AC, Armor Check 0, ASF 5%, 7.5 lbs

Gear:
Traveler's Outfit
Hood of Cunning(+4 WIS, +4 INT, +10 bonus to Wisdom-based skill check 1/day)
Gloves of Dexterity +4 and Prestidigitation at will
Ring of Sustenance(No need for food or water, two hours of sleep.)
Armbands of Maximized Healing (3 times a day, maximize any healing spell of 6th level or lower.)
Ring of Mystic Healing(+1 CL for healing spells; healing becomes more potent based on charges; 1 charge = +2d6, 2 charges = +3d6, 3 charges = +4d6 - 3 charges/day)
Amulet of Retributive Healing (3 times a day heal an equal amount to the target of a conjuration healing effect.)
Boots of Teleportation, Striding, and Springing (Teleport 3/day, +10 ft Movement, +5 Jump)
Shining Coat - Gail's Gift(Protection from Evil, Mending, Resist Elements)
Tunic of Steady Spellcasting
Vestment of Many Styles
Wand of Cure Light Wounds: 38 Charges
Eternal Wand of Healing Lorecall: 2/day
-Pouch, Belt 1 lb
Pearl of Power: 2 up to level six spells restored. (70k)
Diamonds (4000gp)
-Pouch, Belt 1 lb
Marbles (One bag covers 5ft, balance DC 15 to stay on feet.)
Marbles (One bag covers 5ft, balance DC 15 to stay on feet.)
-Bag of Holding I (Max 250, 15 lbs)
Music Box
Hammock
Ancient Medical Texts (3)
Old masterpiece painting, “Triumph of the Hero over the Dragon.”
Elixirs of Hiding (2)
Elixirs of Sneaking (2)
Potions of Spider Climb (2)
Safewing Emblem(1)
-Contingent Spells
Revivify(Self, 1 round after death)
Revivify(Self, 1 round after death if first is discharged)
Money:
GP: 19,100
SP: 65
CP: 0

Skills: (3 + Int per level / Max Ranks 20) 7 Full
Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Nature), Knowledge(Religion), Profession, Spellcraft
[INT +6]
Craft(Food): 8 + 6 = 14 (half)
Search: 0 + 6 = 6
Knowledge(Religion): 22 + 6 = 28 (full)
[CC] Knowledge(Ancients): .5 + 6 = 6.5
[CC] Knowledge(Planes): .5 + 6 = 6.5
Spellcraft: 20 + 6 = 26 (half to full)
[WIS +7]
Heal: 22 + 7 = 29 (full)
Listen: 0 + 7 - 4 = 3
Spot: 0 + 7 - 4 = 3
Sense Motive: 7 + 7 = 14
[CHA +0]
*Bluff: 22 + 0 + 1 = 23 (full)
Diplomacy: 8 + 0 + 2 = 10 (done)
[STR +0]
Jump: 5 + 0 + 5 + 2 = 12
[CON +1]
Concentration: 15 + 1 + 5 (+ 4 + 5) = 21(30) (done)
[DEX +6]
Balance: 0 + 6 + 2 = 8
*Tumble: 22 + 6 + 3 = 31 (full)
[Special]
Speak Language: 1

Languages:
Common: Humans, halflings, half-elves, half-orc (Common)
Aquan: Water-based Creatures (Elven)
Celestial: Good Outsiders (Celestial)
Draconic: Kobolds, troglodytes, lizardfolk, dragons (Draconic)
Elven: Elves (Elven)
Ancient: Ancients (Ancient)

Special Abilities:
Human:
+4 Skill Points
+1 Feat
+1 Skill Point per lvl
Mystic:
Spontaneous Divine Spell Casting
Domain - Healing(Cast Conjuration(healing) spells at +1 Caster Level.)
Pool of Healing (Sacrifice a level four spell slot to gain Lay on Hands [5 x Caster Level +1])
Combat Medic:
Healer Kicker(WIS mod times per day 7/7
o Sanctuary [15 + Class Level + WIS Mod]
o Class Level to Reflex Saves
o Maximized Aid [13 Temp HP, +1 morale bonus attack and saves against fear.]
Defensive Casting(Receives competence bonus equal to class level on concentration checks made to cast spells defensively.)
Field Healer(You can now make a Heal check to provide first aid as a move action (rather than standard) and can take 10 on such checks even when stress or distraction would normally prevent you from doing so.)
Bonus Feat: Mobility
Contemplative:
Bonus Domain - Transformation(Cast Transmutation spells at +1 Caster Level.)
Divine Health (Immune to all diseases)
Slippery Mind(Reroll enchantment will saves one round later.)
Divine Wholeness(Personal Healing 4x Contemplative level [28/28HP])
Divine Body(Immune to poisons of all kinds)
Bonus Domain - Time(Gain Improved Initiative)
Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
Divine Soul( Class Level + 15 = 22)
Eternal Body(No longer physically ages and cannot be magically aged. Ability bonuses continue to accrue and character still dies of old age.)
Feats:
(Flaw 1)Expeditious Dodge (+2 Dodge AC when moving over 40 ft in a round.)
(Flaw 2) Flexible Mind (Choose two skills that you have ranks in. These skills are always in-class for you from now on. Both skills receive a +1 bonus. You gain a Chaotic Aura equal to your character level. It can discerned by Detect Chaos spell or ability.)
(First Level) Combat Casting (+4 bonus on Concentration checks to cast a spell defensively, while grappled, or while pinned.)
(Human) Steady Concentration (You can always ‘Take 10’ on Concentration checks.)
(Third) Mobile Spellcasting (You can make a special Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) to cast a spell and move as one Standard Action. You can’t use this ability to cast spells that normally take longer than a Standard Action to cast. If you fail the check, you lose the spell. You may combine the effect of this feat with casting on the defensive, by raising the DC by 5.)
(Bonus) Mobility(+4 Dodge bonus to AC vs. Attacks of Opportunity due to moving out of or within a threatened area. Any condition that could cause you to lose your Dexterity bonus to AC against an attack causes you to lose this bonus too.)
(Sixth) Improved Toughness(+1 HP per level)
(Ninth) Eschew Materials(You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing the component.)
(Twelfth) Extend Spell (+1 Spell level, double duration)
(Fiftieth) Craft Contingent Spell(You can make contingent any spell that you know. Crafting a contingent spell takes one day (8 hours) for each 1,000 gp in its base price (spell level x caster level x 100gp). To craft a contingent spell, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half the base price. Some spells incur extra costs in material components or XP (as noted in their descriptions), which must be paid when the contingent spell is created. See Contingent Spells, Complete Arcane page 139, for further information.)

Flaws:
Noncombatant (You take a -2 penalty on all melee attack rolls.)
Inattentive(You take a -4 penalty on Listen and Spot checks.)
Traits:
Quick (Your base land speed increases by 10 feet. Subtract 1 from your hit points gained at each level, including 1st.)
Plucky(You gain a +1 bonus on Will saves. You take a -1 penalty on Fortitude saves.)

Spells Known:
A lot.

[Curmudgeon]

Your choices depend a lot on what role you want to fill. Others have discussed the healing + buffing role, so I won't go into that.

Clerics have the best spell availability in the game, though not the best spells. If your party lacks arcane spellcasting power I'd recommend going Cloistered Cleric and taking the Magic and Spell domains. This gives you some otherwise arcane spells, and lets you use arcane scrolls and wands.

If you don't have a skill monkey in your party, Cloistered Cleric (this time for the skill points) and Trickery and Kobold domains will help out quite a bit. Choose Human as your race (for the extra skill points and feat). One level of Human Paragon and the Able Learner feat will give you near-Roguelike skills. To make these domain choices work with Human as your race you'll need to worship Kurtulmak.

There are a bunch of ways of gaining combat power as a Cleric. If your DM allows Complete Champion I recommend the Knowledge Devotion feat, which gives you bonuses to hit and damage for any creatures you make a successful Knowledge check against. (It's like a Ranger's favored enemy bonus -- on steroids.) You'll need lots of skill points to put into the various Knowledge skills, so once again Cloistered Cleric is the way to go. Clerics (Cloistered or otherwise) don't have great weapon proficiency. You gain this via the War domain with an appropriate deity. One good choice is Mayaheine, gaining free Exotic Weapon Proficiency with the bastard sword + shield combination. Mayaheine also has Nobility in her portfolio, which is a good option for your last domain choice. For ranged combat, Elf as a race is your best bet. This race choice gives you Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) and lets you take the Elf domain (for free Point Blank Shot feat) regardless of your choice of deity. Pick whatever other domain that works for you; maybe Time to get free Improved Initiative. Whichever way you decide to go, Divine Power is the best spell to buff yourself for combat effectiveness, because it boosts you to full BAB and thus makes the biggest drawback of the Cloistered option irrelevant.

[warmachine]

3.5, Psionics and ToB banned

Oddly, this sentence, as written, states that '3.5' is banned. Presumably, this means the D&D v3.5 core books are banned and you are playing v3.0.

Clearly, the sentence is grammatically incorrect. The comma is better replaced by a semi-colon. Grammatically incorrect sentences are more likely to be misunderstood and start a flame war. Do your part for world peace, use proper punctuation!


Be careful that Clerics only appeal to certain personalities and attitudes. Clerics have lots of spells but most of them are defensive and utility with few direct damage and battlefield control spells. Slayers find them boring. Clerics are best for tacticians.

Worse, at mid levels, a lot of monsters have high grapple, long reach, energy attacks, negative level effects etc. The front line will often be in deep ****, you can't kill the monster in one shot and it's up to you to deliver Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Protection From Energy, Neutralize Poison, Cure Critical Wounds etc. at touch range to the front line. You may need to cast in the enemy's threat range and you can't afford your spell fizzling. Combat Casting or Skill Focus (Concentration) can be critical.

Also, buy Wands of Cure Light Wounds for use out of combat.

I second the use of Radiant Servant of Pelor. It's cheesy but not too cheesy and no one complains about the uber cheesy healer.

[Kaihaku]

You'll need lots of skill points to put into the various Knowledge skills, so once again Cloistered Cleric is the way to go. Clerics (Cloistered or otherwise) don't have great weapon proficiency.

I would concur that if your group has plenty of melee, going Cloistered Cleric would be a wise move.

Actually, last time I played a Cloistered Cleric I found it good enough that I went straight core-class and didn't take a Prestige Class. It's a different feel than the standard but I've found it to be a very good variant.

[Curmudgeon]

3.5, Psionics and ToB banned

Oddly, this sentence, as written, states that '3.5' is banned.

If you adhere to the "Harvard comma" standard of punctuation, the "3.5" and "banned" cannot be in the same clause because there is no comma after "Psionics". I recommend this standard for clarity. It certainly helps here!

Still, a semicolon instead of a comma after "3.5" would be better.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Go DMM Chain and Persist with party buffs. 12 Dex, 18 Wis, 18 Cha, 16 Con, 16 Int, 15 Str. Memorize 2 copies of Lesser Vigor, Mass, and persist one to heal the party(the other is in case of Dispel). You wear Heavy Armor and buff the party from the back or in the morning while avoiding the enemy. Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments, Chained and Persisted to make the party invulnerable and dangerous, Vigor to fix anything that does get through the armor, and Chained Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength to save them money on gear and item slots. If you spend all your feats on Extra Turning and Metamagic, you should be able to make 2 spells last all day and a couple more affect the entire group.

[Criz Reborn]

Go DMM Chain and Persist with party buffs. 12 Dex, 18 Wis, 18 Cha, 16 Con, 16 Int, 15 Str. Memorize 2 copies of Lesser Vigor, Mass, and persist one to heal the party(the other is in case of Dispel). You wear Heavy Armor and buff the party from the back or in the morning while avoiding the enemy. Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments, Chained and Persisted to make the party invulnerable and dangerous, Vigor to fix anything that does get through the armor, and Chained Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength to save them money on gear and item slots. If you spend all your feats on Extra Turning and Metamagic, you should be able to make 2 spells last all day and a couple more affect the entire group.

I really like this, but it seems like it would take a ridiculous amount of turn attempts to pull it off. I dont think my DM would let me get my hands on the Nightsticks to pull it off.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

18 Cha and a few Extra Turning feats, combined with a careful Domain choice and a Cha-boosting item. Persist is the only Meta that needs DMM anyways, the rest you can usually do with just a modified slot, depending on level.

[Jayabalard]

Me too. My DM is pretty old and is one of those that thinks that martial classes should start to take a back seat to casters at later levels. I dont know why he wont allow psionics though.

Psionics = sci-fi to many people.

[Curmudgeon]

I would concur that if your group has plenty of melee, going Cloistered Cleric would be a wise move.

Actually, last time I played a Cloistered Cleric I found it good enough that I went straight core-class and didn't take a Prestige Class. It's a different feel than the standard but I've found it to be a very good variant.

Cloistered Cleric was designed as a more thoughtful, combat-averse version of the standard base class. But Knowledge Devotion completely turns that on its head, making it a better damage dealer than the base class. Playing a Cloistered Cleric melee type requires more thought on the player's part because you lose proficiency with anything more than light armor, and get fewer hit points. But you've also got plenty of magic, which provides ways to handle these drawbacks.

As for prestige classes, you first have to ask why players choose them. Is it for bonus domains? CC starts out with one extra domain. More spellcasting options? CCs get an expanded spell list. More skills? CCs are as good as Rangers in that regard. You've already got full spellcasting progression, which only a minority of PrCs will allow you to maintain. All that's left is specific PrC powers. So suit yourself: choose a PrC if it better fits what you want to do with the character. But a Cloistered Cleric, with the right feat choices, is good enough that you don't need PrCs.

[Kaihaku]

I agree with you, that's what I was trying to say. They are so good that they don't need a Prestige Class. As for being better damage dealers than the base class, I believe you but I'm content with the variant just as a caster/skillmonkey. That's enough for me.

[Paul H]

Hi

Just a couple of ideas........

1) Stormlord (CD)

Follow a God with Weather Domain, then take Endurance, Gt Fortitude & Wpn Focus Spear, then go Stormlord. Your javelins & Spears gain bonuses, you get Resist Electricty, can move through high winds & storms etc. Full CL! :)

2) Eldritch Disciple (CM)

Four lvls of Cleric, one lvl of Warlock. Need 8 ranks in both Know Religion & Planes. Worship Chaotic (but non-evil) Deity. Use your Turn attempts to convert eldritch Blasts into Healing Blasts. Downside is you lose 2 CL of Cleric.

Eg.
1) Cleric: Extra Turning
2) Cleric
3) Warlock: Practiced Spellcaster (Warlock)
4) Cleric
5) Cleric
6) Eldritch Disciple Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric), Divine Patron [Healing Blast]
7) Eldritch Disciple

You now have the spells/day of 5th lvl Cleric, the Invocations of a 3rd lvl Warlock, can convert your Turn Attempts into 4D6 Healing Blasts (60' range, touch attack - can Crit), and Turn Undead as 6th lvl Cleric. As 10th lvl char you get Least Invocations - choose Eldritch Chain for multiple targets. At 16th lvl you can use a 'cone' of Eldritch Healing!! :)

Oh- and don't forget to make sure ther's enough Healing Belts (SC Pg 110) for the entire party! :)

Cheers
Paul H

[Paul H]

Hi

OK - here's the actual build

Human Eldritch Disciple

Str 12 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 15 Wis 18 Cha 16

1) Cleric [Llir. Domains Magic & Travel). Extra Turning. Practiced Spellcaster Cleric
2) Cleric
3) Warlock. Practiced Spellcaster Warlock. [See the Unseen - Darkvision 60' & See Invis for 24hrs] Eldritch Balst 2D6
4) Cleric
5) Cleric. Eldritch Blast 3D6
6) Eldritch Disciple. [Gift of Divine Patron - Healing Blast]. Point Blank Shot. [Lst Invocation - Spiderwalk 24hrs] Turn/Rebuke Undead.
7) Eld Disciple. Eld Blast 4D6
8) Eld Disciple. [Lst Invocation Swimming Styx - Swim Speed & Breath Water 24hrs]
9) Eld Disciple. Precise Shot. [Gift of Divine Patron - Wild Frenzy. +2Attack/Dam on Eldritch & Melee attacks. Bonus HP equal Class lvl. Lasts 3+cha mod rnds]. Eld Blast 5D6.
10) Eld Disciple. Eldritch Spellweave. Lssr Invocation [Fell Flight - Fly at base land speed good maneuverabilty 24hrs]

You have spells of 8th lvl Cleric. Turn Undead as 9th lvl Cleric. Can use 10 Turn Attempts/Day to convert into 5D6 healing Blasts. (5D6+1 c/w PBS). Have Darkvision & See Invis, climb like a spider & immune to webs. Also have Fly, swim speed equal base move, +8 swim checks, & can breath underwater. All lasting 24hrs. If they're dispelled - std action to replace each one.

You also act as sniper - Ranged Touch Attacks doing 5D6 Eldritch blasts at will. (With PBS/PS)

Cheers
Paul H

[Tempest Fennac]

What does Knowledge Devotion do exactly?I remember starting a thread about whether there's any point to CCs other then flavour (I'm not a fan of the idea of them), but I don't think that feat was mentioned at all.