Reincarnate and Racial Substitution Levels (3.5)

[JellyPooga]

If you take a Racial Substitution Level for your Class/Race, but are later Reincarnated as a different Race I assume you keep the features gained from the RSL. My question is; do you now qualify to take RSL for your new Race/Class?

For Example:
- A Kobold Sorcerer takes RSL for Dragonblood Sorcerer Level 1 and 4
- At level 5 he dies and is Reincarnated as a Dwarf (so he's now a Level 4 Dwarf Sorcerer with Dragonblood Sorcerer RSLs)
- When he goes up a level, does he qualify to take the Level 5 Dwarf Sorcerer RSL?
- Further, if he does take the Dwarf Sorcerer RSL and later uses a Wish or Miracle to restore his Race to Kobold, can he take the level 7 Dragonblood Sorcerer RSL?

I know it's highly unlikely that these sort of occurences would ever happen, given that most Racial Substitution Levels are for Class Levels 1-6ish (i.e. before the party has easy access to the Reincarnate spell) and that the chance of rolling the required Race that has a relevant RSL is tiny, but it's theoretically possible right?

It just occured to me that using Reincarnate you could, in theory, cherry pick Racial Substitution Levels (which are in general slightly better than the standard Class) from several different Races and Classes...could make for an interesting Background story for a character anyway...

[Emperor Tippy]

Reincarnate is funny. How it ends up working is something you should take up with your DM. In theory you can end up with 50 ranks in every skill at level 1, a million extra feats, and a lot of other wonky stuff with with reincarnate.

[Shades of Gray]

Human Fighter: Okay, our last candidate for our group is here.

???: Hi guys?

Human Fighter:What the- What Are you?

???: Well, at first I was an ogre, then a dwarf, then an elf, then a Mind Flayer, and finally, a gelatinous cube.

Human Fighter:...

[Hairb]

Without having looked at the RSL in question, I would probably ask you to retrain (for free) the offending RSLs to vanilla sorceror levels or the Dwarf Sorceror RSL if one exists for the corresponding level. If you have to redraw your sheet anyway, why stop at racial features?

[monty]

I'd say you can keep the levels. Since class levels more or less represent knowledge gained from training in that particular class, there's no reason you should spontaneously lose that knowledge.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

I'd say you can keep the levels. Since class levels more or less represent knowledge gained from training in that particular class, there's no reason you should spontaneously lose that knowledge.

What this guy said. Anyway: Though you'd have the levels you'd lose any ability to use class features gained as you would technically nolonger qualify for them.
Though if said "class features" don't go beyond spells, then ignore that last statement.

[JellyPooga]

What this guy said. Anyway: Though you'd have the levels you'd lose any ability to use class features gained as you would technically nolonger qualify for them.
Though if said "class features" don't go beyond spells, then ignore that last statement.

That's precisely it though...you don't lose class features just because you no longer qualify for the class unless the class says so specifically (like Paladin). In most cases, you retain all your class features but can no longer progress in that class. Feats work differently though (so if you had a racial Feat that you no longer qualified for, yeah, you'd not be able to use it).

@Tippy...I just re-read Reincarnate to see how exactly that works (without some kind of uber-cheese), but can't see it. I'm guessing its people mis-reading that you retain class features, skills and feats, etc. despite losing a level (where the intention [and as far as I can see the RAW] is that you retain everything and then lose a level, with it's requisite skill, feat, ability loss, etc.).

[jcsw]

Human Fighter: Okay, our last candidate for our group is here.

???: Hi guys?

Human Fighter:What the- What Are you?

???: Well, at first I was an ogre, then a dwarf, then an elf, then a Mind Flayer, and finally, a gelatinous cube.

Human Fighter:...

Sorry to kill your fun, but you can only be reincarnated to a creature of the same type.

Would be fun to research a True Reincarnation spell or something, which would allow you to change creature types... I imagine several tables to roll from... Hmm...

[only1doug]

<snip>

@Tippy...I just re-read Reincarnate to see how exactly that works (without some kind of uber-cheese), but can't see it. I'm guessing its people mis-reading that you retain class features, skills and feats, etc. despite losing a level (where the intention [and as far as I can see the RAW] is that you retain everything and then lose a level, with it's requisite skill, feat, ability loss, etc.).

Thats exactly the cheese that tippy was referring to. RAW in raise dead are clear about the reduction of hitpoints, skillspoints, BAB, feats etc for losing the level. Reincarnate specifically states that you keep those features then mentions that your character level is reduced by 1 without specifying the details of level loss again.

yes, its reading the specific wording in a way that isn't intended.
no, no GM would allow you to get away with it.

but it is a possible interpretation of the RAW

[Ascension]

If you do end up as a dwarf sorcerer, and can't talk your DM into allowing you to be a dream dwarf instead for the CHA, you'll need all the help you can get...

[MCerberus]

If you do end up as a dwarf sorcerer, and can't talk your DM into allowing you to be a dream dwarf instead for the CHA, you'll need all the help you can get...

The reincarnate spell lets you keep all your mental stats while changing the modifiers for your physical ones.

Say you're a standard elf. +2 dex -2 con. You are reincarnated as a dwarf. +2 con with no missing charisma.

[Flickerdart]

If you do end up as a dwarf sorcerer, and can't talk your DM into allowing you to be a dream dwarf instead for the CHA, you'll need all the help you can get...

Reincarnation edits physical stats, not mental stats since your mind is the same. You'd have a free CON bonus without the drawbacks.

[Ascension]

Niiiiiice. Very, very nice.

A venerable grey elf reincarnated as an orc would make one heck of a good gish...

[Baron Corm]

That's precisely it though...you don't lose class features just because you no longer qualify for the class unless the class says so specifically (like Paladin). In most cases, you retain all your class features but can no longer progress in that class. Feats work differently though (so if you had a racial Feat that you no longer qualified for, yeah, you'd not be able to use it).

Not only do feats work that way, but prestige classes do as well. So base classes do, but prestige classes don't, and racial substitution levels don't specify, because they didn't consider that you would change your race. The way I see it, no specification, and no precedent, means this is completely up to the DM.

[Chronos]

Not only do feats work that way, but prestige classes do as well.

This is highly debatable. Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior contain a rule that says that, but it doesn't show up anywhere else, and it's hard to argue that a rule in Complete Warrior applies to prestige classes in the DMG. You've also got the complication that several PrCs have prerequisites that they themselves take away: For instance, Dragon Disciple requires that you be a non-dragon, but eventually turns you into a dragon, and Ur-Priest requires that you not be able to cast divine spells, but immediately gives you divine spellcasting.

[Greg]

Sorry to kill your fun, but you can only be reincarnated to a creature of the same type.

Not if you roll 100 on the table.

[robotrobot2]

The way I read the spell, apart from the normal level loss, the only things that change about your character are: physical ability scores, innate racial qualities, and subtype.

[monty]

Not if you roll 100 on the table.

"Other," the DM's favorite word.


"All right, the barbarian was reincarnated as...a butterfly!"

[Deth Muncher]

"Other," the DM's favorite word.


"All right, the barbarian was reincarnated as...a butterfly!"

O_o

DM: You see a butterfly floating towards your group.

Fighter: I smack at it with a club!

DM: The butterfly becomes angry, and has managed to find a diminuitive sized great-axe somewhere. Roll initiative.

[DarknessLord]

I think I might do that...

Or worse yet, make it have been a wizard in it's last life!

[monty]

I think I might do that...

Or worse yet, make it have been a wizard in it's last life!

Be fun with touch spells.
"The butterfly enters your threatened range. Would you like to make an attack of opportunity?"
"Uh...no?"
"It lands on your arm. You take 5d6 damage."

[Zeful]

An interesting conundrum, but I would rule as such:
You keep any racial substitution levels you currently posses, but you can no longer take any more of those levels. I would also not allow you to take Racial Substitution Levels from any race that you might happen to be at the time.
Effectively you are limited to one race's RSL, which you can only take when you are a member of that race.

[Aquillion]

As an aside, the Reincarnate spell also has what is possibly the worst advice ever printed in any official D20 material:

It’s possible for the change in the subject’s ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is well advised to become a multiclass character.

So if my barbarian is changed into a race with an strength penalty, I should... multiclass to wizard? And basically be a level 1 character when the rest of my party is like eight levels (or more) higher? And be eight or more levels behind everyone else for the rest of the game?

Yeaaaah. Randomly multiclassing into something totally unrelated to your existing levels because your stats changed a bit is not really what I would consider "well-advised."