Using iconic characters

[Attilargh]

We've all met them, right? Darth Vader, Elminster, Buffy, staring at us from their stat blocks on the page. They puzzle me.

Why do game designers stat out these famous characters? Okay, so it is kinda cool knowing that Revan was actually more badass than the Exile (yay!), but, uh, so what? What are we supposed to do with this information? After all, most of these stats represent the characters in their prime, which makes them kinda sorta tough. Usually ridiculously so, in fact. Also, for villains, it is also the power level on which most of them got their collective buttocks handed to them.

I guess I'm something of a canon buff. Beyond serving as convenient "this is the part where you run away" sign, I don't see myself actually allowing any character ever to encounter, say, Emperor Palpatine: Knowing what roleplayers can be like, it has a decent chance of either party dying rather ingnominously.

So, who here uses iconic characters? How do you use them? Do you make an effort to fit the encounter to established canon, or do you just say "boop that, I'm gong to let the players be the heroes"?

[Frosty]

My entire party isn't that stupid. One characte rmay die, but that's what Ressurection is for. Even the Chaotic Evil pdeople in my campaigns are that suicidal as to challenge Elminster.

[Morty]

I've never DMed a game in an estabilished setting yet but if I did, I'd have PCs meet an iconic character when it's logical and fits the plot. If the character was antagonistic to players but much more powerful, I'd tailor the adventure so that the players can avoid fighting this character, of course. If the PCs are high-level, I see nothing wrong in them facing iconic characters in combat. Many FR high-level iconic characters are preety wimpy for their level anyway.

[Frosty]

Say, where can I find out more about the exploits of Elmindster anyways? To hear some people say it he has bedded deities left and right and can single-handed take down abominations from the far-plane.

[DMfromTheAbyss]

I've been in a few games with Iconic characters that made appearances. I must say though that your right in that balancing them against a PC party is difficult.

In the SWG d6/d20 game I was in Vader & Palpatine etc. were around (theoretically so were all the rebel/good guy characters though we never saw them) and the few times they were encountered almost broke the game. The first time we encountered Vader (Executer/Interdictor-trap)my character and the Jedi with him hatched a desparate plan to fight to the death to avoid capture... statistically it would have been an even fight "IF" we all used force points every round and he didn't. The DM checked our Math gave us a seriously?!? look then said nevermind the whole thing didn't happen, becouse either all the PC's would be dead and the campaign over (it was already somewhat tenous that we bothered to play at all the only thing keeping us going was liking our characters) or we would have killed Vader and the story line would be such a mess it wasn't worth dealing with.

The other encounter involved palpatine in the most anticlimactic fight ever, basically my character jumped him with the equivilent of a Yslmiri bubble and killed him in ~9 seconds (middle of second round) via landing on him and pummeling till he was a smear. I then got to fight the imperial guardsmen of course, but the whole encounter was such a letdown that the DM barely bothered rolling anything out.

By the time you can interact with an iconic character as anything but a speed bump, they really lose their mystique and become "not a big Deal".

Your other option is to up their level continously as the game progresses, but this amounts to the DM saying you can never get as cool as them which really kills the whole PC's as the hero paradime, which usually means your better off watching a movie.

I hate to say it but with Iconic characters your better off giving them a walk on bit roleplaying part (Hey you just met "Blankcharacter" isn't that cool" now move along.) than using them as opponents or foils, they never live up to the hype, except when they ruin your game.

PS. and Elminster is a wimp, if you have more than what 45 HP he can't kill you without resorting to melee, his old official stats (The 2nd ed Hero's lorebook I Think? had him around 31st level) has his stock memorization at like 5 offensive damaging spells, no save or die, and a whole lot of "Look I'm an Archmage I can memorize every silly useless spell in the G*dforsaken game.

Now Manshoon (the evil counterpart to Elminster that he continously thwarts) is brutal enough at 19th level he beat 2 PC's of 20+ level wizards in spell duels consecutively.

Why Stats and the Forgotten realms don't mix. See also why in the official 2nd ed hero and villian books the drow are all heros and the elves are all villians.

[Morty]

Say, where can I find out more about the exploits of Elmindster anyways? To hear some people say it he has bedded deities left and right and can single-handed take down abominations from the far-plane.

It's in FR novels I belive, but I haven't read any with Elminster in it. I have read one starring Drizzt and Artemis Entreri though, and it was rather bad.

[Frosty]

If he's an archmage, then can't he spontaneous convert his spells into Arcane Fire anyways and hurt you?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I once ran a solo game where the excessively powerful PC was trying to hunt down a certain individual, long/adult story I won't get into. He learned that she'd asked the Harpers for help and told them his entire plan, that she was hiding out in Silverymoon, and that Elminster was in town. He went in anyway, encountered a Projected Image of said icon, and by that time it was too late to escape. In describing the campaign to our gaming friends, his story ends with his character being "Elminstered".

[fractic]

If he's an archmage, then can't he spontaneous convert his spells into Arcane Fire anyways and hurt you?

Only archmages with an int of 18 or lower would ever consider taking arcane fire.

[Thane of Fife]

Say, where can I find out more about the exploits of Elmindster anyways? To hear some people say it he has bedded deities left and right and can single-handed take down abominations from the far-plane.

The novels Elminster: Making of a Mage and Elminster in Hell are both fairly interesting accounts.

Also, a lot of the older Forgotten Realms books (many of which are available online at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) are written from Elminster's perspective, and hence contain insights into him (I particularly recommend The Cult of the Dragon as an interesting read).

[Frosty]

Given how stupidly he prepared his spells, who knows...

[Ascension]

I've statted out Edgar Allen Poe, Annabel Lee, and some other Poeish stuff for a campaign I'm about to run here. I would go into more detail, but it would involve MASSIVE SPOILERS.

'course this is a D&D setting and not tied to reality or the canonical poem in anything more than an incidental way, so it doesn't really matter if the PCs slaughter them.

...it might make me cry, though.

[tyckspoon]

Characters in Realms lore tend to make a lot of what would, mechanically speaking, be very poor choices. Like being Spellfire wielders, which is bookwise a massively powerful and impressive thing. The game-rules version of it? Sucks hard. The rules and the lore of the Realms are often not well connected. So yeah, Elminster would probably take Arcane Fire, because he doesn't use spellfire but he can still cook you with the raw power of magic if he has to.

[fractic]

So yeah, Elminster would probably take Arcane Fire, because he doesn't use spellfire but he can still cook you with the raw power of magic if he has to.

Yeah lets permanently give up a 9th level spellslot in order to replicate the effects of a cantrip.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Really, here's all the information you need to know about Elminster-

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodModeSue

With that said, one reason people use "Iconic" characters is it's a rather useful form of characterization shorthand. "Oh, that's Darth Vader. We know how that guy acts."

Also Fractic, Arcane Fire isn't *THAT* bad. It can be useful, and it is actually a powerful ability. Now if only the other wizard choices weren't better...

[fractic]

Also Fractic, Arcane Fire isn't *THAT* bad.

Yes it is. First you have to give up a lvl 9 slot. Then you have to waste a perfectly good spell to do allmost no damage. Even a level 5 archmage converting a level 9 spell only does 49 damage on average. And it still requires an attack roll. Even fighters do better then that.

[kpenguin]

Yes it is. First you have to give up a lvl 9 slot. Then you have to waste a perfectly good spell to do allmost no damage. Even a level 5 archmage converting a level 9 spell only does 49 damage on average. And it still requires an attack roll. Even fighters do better then that.

Its good if you took levels in Arcane Trickster beforehand. According to the guide to being you-know-who...

Arcane Trickster: this one's for rogue/wizards. If you're *determined* to be a rogue/wizard... play a Beguiler (PHB II). If you're determined to actually be a rogue/wizard, with Sneak Attack, be a Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster/Archmage. Take Arcane Fire as a High Arcana and as many Archmage levels as you can fit in after Trickster. Why? Because Arcane Fire lets you turn spells into damage rays. An Archmage 4 can turn a first-level spell into a 5d6 ray. You can sneak attack with those rays and get extra damage. "Arcane Trickster" is a different kind of character than "wizard as primary arcanist", though, so enough said about this class.

[fractic]

Its good if you took levels in Arcane Trickster beforehand. According to the guide to being you-know-who...

That's at least a somewhat reasonable use. Still not worth it though. Why sneak attack when you can kill people with powerfull magic. Also without a way to get a second sneak attack die from another source then rogue this trick doesn't kick in before level 20.

[Chronos]

Even if you don't use the iconic characters, the stats are good for giving a sense of perspective: If Drizzt is 11th level, say, and the party has just hit 12th, then you know you're pretty badass. On the other hand, if Elminster is 23rd or whatever, then you also know that, despite being rather badass, there's still someone out there who can hand you your butts on a platter if he so chooses.

[Lycan 01]

Michael Jackson, Adolf Hitler, a cyborg zombie version of Abraham Lincoln... Well, really Hitler was a player who wanted to screw around while I taught another guy how to play, Michael Jackson was the BBEG of said lesson, and Lincoln was the Ultra Evil Guy who would warp in and kill them all if they actually managed to do well...

Hitler had a 20 in Charisma, plus a bunch of points in things like Intimidate and Bluff. He talked a kobold into slitting its own throat, in fact...

Wacko Jacko was just a fist-fighter with high Dex...

Lincoln was death incarnate, in essence.


Of course, this was all just screwing around, and I'm still unable to keep track of all the 4e rules and stuff, so chances are NOTHING about ANY of that was correctly done...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Arcane Fire is a Supernatural ability, which automatically goes through even infinite SR and nearly every magic immunity in 3.5. This was printed before the Orb spells and Acid Breath or any damage-dealing spells that are instantaneous conjurations for that matter, so apart from summoning a monster to fight an opponent for you many protagonists have resorted to Arcane Fire as their only effective mode of attack. With so many splatbooks available now Arcane Fire is indeed completely worthless, even Draconic Breath or Thunderlance with Arcane Strike is better off. My point is, Arcane Fire was a good and useful ability, but as the game has suffered an inevitable power creep we have upped our standard for what abilities are good and useful, so now it sucks.

[Ravyn]

I run Exalted, mostly, and it's very hard to kick a rock without hitting a canonical character, particularly when your party operates out of Yu Shan.

My take on canonicals varies. I prefer the ones I use to be relatively vague in their implementation (insert overdetail of Second Edition rant here, it's too hot for me to work up a proper righteous indignation) so I have plenty of room to slip into the undefined cracks in their minds and make them into my own. Still avoid them, though; I'll use the Deathlords because it can't be avoided, I'll use the gods because otherwise I'd spend a couple months just trying to populate Yu Shan, I use Kejak and Ayesha because I can understand them....

....and then there was the Shoat of the Mire incident, but that was a special case in which I took advantage of the fact that she was described in about two sentences. Wish she hadn't been a Dusk, though; it made the build difficult.

When I use canonicals, it's partly to be able to shorthand a set of information rather than having to spell it all out, partly because I need a character and someone happens to have written someone appropriate, and partly because I want to see if I can subvert them a bit. I have a few issues with them, though; oftentimes my group will ignore characters unique to my setting whom I understand well in favor of canonicals I haven't quite managed to wrap my head around, and it makes life difficult. At least they're talking and not pulling out their weapons, though, right?

[Eldritch_Ent]

Another nice thing about Arcane Fire is that it gives your relatively useless at that level spell slots (0th through second, not counting utilities) actual use in combat, since it deals (Archmage Levels)d6 damage + (Spell Level)d6 damage. That damage can add up fast...

Regardless, I still stand by my earlier statement. It's a good ability, it's just that everything that's come after it is better. =P Just because something else better comes out doesn't mean something is bad. Plus it's handy if your DM goes Core Only.

[Dr Bwaa]

I think the important part of Elminster's Arcane Fire is the fact that he does not get it through Archmage, iirc. He's Chosen of Mystra. That whole "I contained the soul of the Goddess of Magic for a while" bit. I think it's safe to say his arcane fire probably does more than 49 damage

As for iconic characters, I use them if it would make sense, though rarely as antagonists. If they are antagonists, well, the PCs better go level up before they go toe-to-toe with the BBEG, then, shouldn't they?

Not to mention that I've never actually DMed in a CS that I didn't create entirely, but that's besides the fact. I've got many of the important canonical NPCs statted out already; some are very high level and some are not. Whether the PCs get themselves killed is (largely) their own problem

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Elminster's ability is actually Silver Fire, which can do many many things other than dealing direct damage, which is only 4d12 in a 70-foot line AoE by the way. Just to name a few things he can use it for: Breathe underwater indefinitely; Dispel all charms and compulsions on himself; Sustain him for a week at a time without food or water; restore dead magic areas and dispel anti-magic fields in a cone AoE. Silver Fire still sucks for dealing damage, but it is absolutely amazing to have available. It can probably do all those things because it was easy to explain a new Power As The Plot Demanded or just another Asspull by saying, "It's just another effect of the Silver Fire!"


I'd rather spend a feat on Draconic Breath, which can be used with Blinding Breath to great effect, or spend a feat on Arcane Strike and keep Thunderlance prepared/persistent (with Combat Reflexes, 20 foot reach wtf), than forever wast a 9th level spell slot and take all 5 levels of Archmage just so Arcane Fire is almost as useful as either of those things. Like I said, it was a good and useful ability, but compared to anything available now with a similar activation cost it sucks.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Just as a quick aside, Which book is Arcane Strike and Thunderlance from?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just as a quick aside, Which book is Arcane Strike and Thunderlance from?

Arcane Strike is a feat in Complete Warrior, Thunderlance is in Spell Compendium.

[FMArthur]

I had a cleric player who chose Pun-Pun as his deity. Does that count as a use of an iconic character?

[String]

Before opening this thread, I thought it was going to talk about Hennet, Regdar and the like. I was dissapointed.

Hmm. I ran a party against the Freedom League in MnM. Does that count? I plan on one day running a group of Jedi against some KotOR era stuff, if I could get my hands on the book.

[Shazzbaa]

As not a DM, I can't comment on that aspect of it, but I have to say I'd have troubles with this. I'm pretty much the only person in my group who didn't read all those fantasy books and know every detail of Drizzt's life story, and I'm the only one who doesn't really care how you pronounce "Raistlin." If any of these characters actually showed up in a game, I'd be the only person who was completely lost. ^^;

Vaguely related, however: I had one GM who based ALL of the NPCs (probably more than 50 people, it was a long game) on the stage personas of J-rock stars. It was a highly political game, and allegiances actually broke and reformed based on the state of each of the bands in real life at that time -- one band broke up in the middle of the game, and shortly thereafter, some key NPCs based on those members betrayed our party.

I get the feeling that it would have helped me a great deal to keep up with Japanese rock bands while I was in this campaign.