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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    Crossposting this, since I can't check out the CharOp boards at work, and I'd like to get this idea out to a larger populous.

    Whirling Blade is a spell from Spell Compendium. It allows the caster to make a melee attack with the weapon he holds as the focus of the spell. This is counted in every way as a melee attack.

    What happens if a character, say...a Bard4/Warblade16 initiates Raging Mongoose to gain 2 extra attacks with his main hand, then casts Whirling Blade on a group of foes? Does he get the extra attacks? How would this work?

    I ponder...
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    Well, ToB says (I think somewhere) that Raging Mongoose can only be used once a round, right? And, how would you get the extra action to cast after attacking? Quicken?
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    Default Re: Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    Don't have ToB on me, but aren't most manuevers standard actions?

    Yes, they're standard actions that do attacks, but they're not the 'single attack' that the spell is looking for.
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    Default Re: Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    You'd get one attack against a whole bunch of things with the spell, and then a couple of perfectly normal melee attacks against something (if anything) standing right next to you. No matter how many attacks you get, Whirling Blade only applies to one of them.
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    Default Re: Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    There are 3 different kinds of maneuvers. Strikes, Boosts, and Counters. Almost all strikes are standard actions, with some being full rounders. All most all boosts are swift actions, and all counters are immediate actions.

    I'm like, 99% sure that Raging Mongoose is a boost, but I'm away from my books. Therefore, you initiate it as a swift action, then cast as your standard action.

    I was kind of thinking that graphically, it might be respresented as your blade bouncing around, Chakram style, scything multiple foes, and one foe multiple times.

    I dunno, would be pretty freakin sweet if it was possible.
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    Default Re: Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    Quote Originally Posted by lussmanj View Post
    I was kind of thinking that graphically, it might be respresented as your blade bouncing around, Chakram style, scything multiple foes, and one foe multiple times.

    I dunno, would be pretty freakin sweet if it was possible.
    Just get to Bloodstorm Blade 5 to get bloodwind ricochet (Full round attack; expends an iron heart maneuver without giving you the benefit). You get to throw your weapon at people and have it ricochet to multiple opponents before returning to you, basically having each iterative attack go after a different opponent, so if you've got BAB 11, you make your +11 attack at Opponent X, then the +6 at Opponent Y and then the +1 at Opponent Z. So you could use the mongoose boosts to get more attacks this way. Just remember you can't both boost and use the swift action to make the ranged attacks use your Strength instead of Dexterity
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    Default Re: Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    Quote Originally Posted by lussmanj View Post
    There are 3 different kinds of maneuvers. Strikes, Boosts, and Counters. Almost all strikes are standard actions, with some being full rounders. All most all boosts are swift actions, and all counters are immediate actions.

    I'm like, 99% sure that Raging Mongoose is a boost, but I'm away from my books. Therefore, you initiate it as a swift action, then cast as your standard action.

    I was kind of thinking that graphically, it might be respresented as your blade bouncing around, Chakram style, scything multiple foes, and one foe multiple times.

    I dunno, would be pretty freakin sweet if it was possible.
    Confirming Raging Mongoose: Boost (Swift). All Boosts are Swift actions, all counters are Immediate, and all but one of the Strikes are Full-Round/Standard action (the exception is a Move Action, and is one-of-a-kind).

    Whirling Blade is a Swift action casting time, right? If so, it can't be used with Raging Mongoose. If not, then it can't be used in the same round unless you can get an extra Standard action without spending your Swift one (as you need to attack to use Raging Mongoose, last I checked).

    Regardless of this, the combo is actually very poor. Considering Time Stands Still is vastly superior to this no matter how you rule it, I'd say this is very weak at best, a poor use of resources at worst.

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    Default Re: Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Confirming Raging Mongoose: Boost (Swift). All Boosts are Swift actions, all counters are Immediate, and all but one of the Strikes are Full-Round/Standard action (the exception is a Move Action, and is one-of-a-kind).
    Thanks, I was almost completely sure that it was, but had an little doubt in the back of my head screaming out for attention. Iron Heart Surge, I'm pretty sure, is a standard action, and its not a strike, which lead me to believe that not all boosts are swift. It might again be another random outlier, which wouldn't be totally out of place, considering how messed up that ability actually is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Whirling Blade is a Swift action casting time, right? If so, it can't be used with Raging Mongoose. If not, then it can't be used in the same round unless you can get an extra Standard action without spending your Swift one (as you need to attack to use Raging Mongoose, last I checked).
    Whirling Blade is a standard action casting time. It won't interfere with initiating the Mongoose line of boosts prior to casting. Whether or not WB derives any benefit from it, is what I'm pondering.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Regardless of this, the combo is actually very poor. Considering Time Stands Still is vastly superior to this no matter how you rule it, I'd say this is very weak at best, a poor use of resources at worst.
    You know, some time, you just can't get to an enemy, and stowing or dropping your primary weapon to draw a bow just isn't an option, and you aren't a stupid Bloodstorm Blade, and you just wanna reach out and WHACK someone, that's what this is for. Sure, if you were in close melee, you could just smack em one, but sometimes you can't, or don't want to, get into melee, but don't want to waste your turn or delay to be useful. Also, Time Stands Still is a 9th level maneuver, which this build wouldn't see till level 19, while Whirling Blade is accessable at 4th level at the earliers, and combining it with Dancing Mongoose (Raging Mongoose's little brother) could be happening as early as level 8 or so.

    Its kind of situational, but if you were in that situation, wouldn't you want a little extra oomph out of your combined abilities?
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    Default Re: Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    Quote Originally Posted by lussmanj View Post
    Thanks, I was almost completely sure that it was, but had an little doubt in the back of my head screaming out for attention. Iron Heart Surge, I'm pretty sure, is a standard action, and its not a strike, which lead me to believe that not all boosts are swift. It might again be another random outlier, which wouldn't be totally out of place, considering how messed up that ability actually is.
    IIRC, IHS is a Strike, or it has no defining type. Not sure myself though.

    Now that I think about it, there are 2 Move action Maneuvers. One Shadow Hand, the other a White Raven (or was it Devoted Spirit?).

    Whirling Blade is a standard action casting time. It won't interfere with initiating the Mongoose line of boosts prior to casting. Whether or not WB derives any benefit from it, is what I'm pondering.
    Don't the Mongoose line of boosts need you to make a full attack or attack action?

    You know, some time, you just can't get to an enemy, and stowing or dropping your primary weapon to draw a bow just isn't an option, and you aren't a stupid Bloodstorm Blade, and you just wanna reach out and WHACK someone, that's what this is for. Sure, if you were in close melee, you could just smack em one, but sometimes you can't, or don't want to, get into melee, but don't want to waste your turn or delay to be useful. Also, Time Stands Still is a 9th level maneuver, which this build wouldn't see till level 19, while Whirling Blade is accessable at 4th level at the earliers, and combining it with Dancing Mongoose (Raging Mongoose's little brother) could be happening as early as level 8 or so.

    Its kind of situational, but if you were in that situation, wouldn't you want a little extra oomph out of your combined abilities?
    True, the combo scales horribly. Whirling Blade is quickly made useless by other spells that can get you close to the enemy (Example: Baleful Teleport+Caster's Familiar can get you adjacent to the target ASAP, provided the Mage goes before you).

    Plus this depends on the DM interpreting the two to work together. If you can't make an attack and have Whirling Blade active when you do, then IIRC you can't use Raging Mongoose in conjunction with it.

    It's a nice trick if it works, but not too useful for the long run.

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    Default Re: Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    "Even if your base attack bonus would normally give you multiple attacks, a whirling blade gets only one attack (at your best attack bonus) against each target. The weapon deals damage just as if you had swung it in melee, including any bonuses you might have from ability scores or feats."

    "After initiating this boost, you can make two additional attacks with each weapon you wield."

    You are not actually wielding the weapon during your Whirling Blade attacks, the attacks which are made are done so as though it were being wielded in melee. Therefore, you can use Raging Mongoose to gain additional attacks against adjacent foes, but it would not grant additional attacks against creatures affected by Whirling Blade unless they were adjacent to you.

    The best use of Whirling Blade that I know of is to Extend/Persist Wraithstrike at least one round before, then Arcane Strike, Charge, Power Attack, Leap Attack, make your attack at the end of the charge, and cast a (Rod of) Quickened Whirling Blade. Your Power/Leap Attack and Arcane Strike bonuses will still apply against all of the opponents attacked by the Whirling Blade, with Wraithstrike to ensure that your attacks hit.

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    Default Re: Whirling (War)Blade abuse?

    Iron Heart Surge, I'm pretty sure, is a standard action, and its not a strike, which lead me to believe that not all boosts are swift. It might again be another random outlier, which wouldn't be totally out of place, considering how messed up that ability actually is.
    Not all maneuvers are strikes, boosts, or counters. Iron Heart Surge isn't any of those, nor are the Shadow Hand teleportation tricks.
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