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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Stycotl's Avatar

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    Default 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    Slip Inside
    You are adept at maneuvering under the reach of large opponents or opponents with large weapons.
    Prerequisites: 18 Dexterity, Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +6, base Reflex save +5, Tumble 9 ranks
    Benefits: Whenever a foe attacks you in melee with any reach greater than 5 feet, and misses, you can take an immediate action to make a Tumble check at half speed, maneuvering to an open square adjacent to the creature. This movement does not count against your normal movement for the round. If you fail the Tumble check, you end up in the same square that you started in and provoke an Attack of Opportunity from any foe that threatens you. If you succeed at the check, you can make a single attack at your highest base attack bonus against that creature; in this case, both the tumbling and the attack would be considered part of the immediate action.

    ***********

    so, i figured that this could give an edge either to the players that are always getting hit by monsters with reach, or to the dm's npc, when the characters make comfortable with the whole expansion tactic.

    thoughts?
    Last edited by Stycotl; 2009-06-08 at 04:19 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    Meh. Any meleer with 18 dex and 9 ranks in tumble is going to be able to tumble up to their opponent on a roll of 2 or higher anyway. The feat doesn't really do anything new except letting them get some extra movement during the opponent's turn. The fact that it doesn't even work until the opponent misses just makes it even less likely to get used.
    I spent an hour on the edge of dreams,
    I walked between the worlds,
    and when I woke I never knew
    to which side I had fallen

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kizara's Avatar

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    1) Using grammar when posting is nice. It is not hard to capitalize "I" and use proper sentance formatting. People tend to give alot more respect/credit/consideration to your post when you do this.

    2) As for the feat itself:

    What kind of action is the Tumble check? A Move action? Swift? Immediate? (should be Immediate)
    Pre-reqs are a bit high for what this is. I'd drop the base Reflex save to 4 and the Tumble to 5 ranks. Thus, people who are not straight-classed rogue with maxed Tumble can get and benefit from this.
    It should count against your movement, as this is possibly a very LARGE amount of movement in case of creatures with big reach.
    If you fail the check you should still move, and provoke as you do so, as per the normal Tumble rules.


    All-in-All a limited use but interesting feat.
    Personally I'd give it some added benefit in addition, as the use is extremely limited. Maybe a free attack with your opponent denied his Dex? Would certinally be in-theme.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kizara's Avatar

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge of Dreams View Post
    Meh. Any meleer with 18 dex and 9 ranks in tumble is going to be able to tumble up to their opponent on a roll of 2 or higher anyway. The feat doesn't really do anything new except letting them get some extra movement during the opponent's turn. The fact that it doesn't even work until the opponent misses just makes it even less likely to get used.
    Very true, I suggest you consider my Tumble rules as the RAW ones are junk IMO:

    Tumble:

    When you attempt to Tumble in combat to avoid an Attack of Opportunity, your Tumble check is opposed by your opponent’s attack roll. Essentially, you still provoke but your Tumble check serves as your AC. Your opponent must still hit your normal AC to hit you.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Stycotl's Avatar

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizara View Post
    1) Using grammar when posting is nice. It is not hard to capitalize "I" and use proper sentance formatting. People tend to give alot more respect/credit/consideration to your post when you do this.

    2) As for the feat itself:

    What kind of action is the Tumble check? A Move action? Swift? Immediate? (should be Immediate)
    Pre-reqs are a bit high for what this is. I'd drop the base Reflex save to 4 and the Tumble to 5 ranks. Thus, people who are not straight-classed rogue with maxed Tumble can get and benefit from this.
    It should count against your movement, as this is possibly a very LARGE amount of movement in case of creatures with big reach.
    If you fail the check you should still move, and provoke as you do so, as per the normal Tumble rules.


    All-in-All a limited use but interesting feat.
    Personally I'd give it some added benefit in addition, as the use is extremely limited. Maybe a free attack with your opponent denied his Dex? Would certinally be in-theme.
    meh. i formatted the feat. standard forum chatting i don't care nough about to cap. plus, i've been doing it this way for so long that it is my branding; i probably wouldn't recognize my posts if i didn't. save that for the storytelling and homebrewing.

    so, both you and edge think it needs some boosting. interesting. i could either lower prereqs, or i could up the power. i'm all about upping the power, and as edge said, any shmuck could tumble past a foe normally.

    hmm. i do like your tumble houserule, and i might actually steal that for my campaigns; we'll see. but till then, i'll build this feat for use with normal rules.

    oh yeah, the kind of action was essentially an attack of opportunity, though i didn't come out and say it, but one that allowed only movement as its effect. in keeping with the normal rules, i should probably make it an immediate act.

    thanks for the posts. i am going to go try to dream up something meaner for the feat effect.

    aaron out.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kizara's Avatar

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    I reiterate that you should give it a free attack against your opponent, kinda like a Karmic Strike style effect, but including moving into range.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Stycotl's Avatar

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    i've been pondering something along that line, but then it seems like i'd have to *raise* the prereqs, instead of lowering them. move+attack, all for free--well, the cost of one of this round's AoO's. that would be the ideal way to go in my optimizing dreams. maybe if i just give it a bab prereq as well, say +6. that way, a full-bab class that also has tumble as a class skill, and reflex as a good save, could take this at level 6, but other types would have to wait. how's that sound?
    my own diabolical experiments (homebrew)

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    Announcer— “Your cable television is experiencing difficulties. Please do not panic. Resist the temptation to read or talk to loved ones. Do not attempt sexual relations, as years of TV radiation have left your genitals withered and useless.”

    Wiggum, checking— “Well I'll be damned.”

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kizara's Avatar

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    Remember that it only works against an opponent with reach that misses you. Then, you have to make a Tumble check (and possibly just provoke and screw yourself) to make it to him (and hope you have movement left from last round to do it with), and then you get to make your attack roll.

    It's hardly free damage.

    Mind you, this is with my Tumble rules, as its really impossible to intelligently design this feat otherwise as the current RAW Tumble rules are complete garbage.

    With that in mind, you should be able to pick something like this up by level 6 as a rogue if you are gunning for it. I would have the prerequisties line read as follows:

    Prerequisites: Dex 17, Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +4, Tumble 5 ranks.

    I don't really like using the base Reflex save as a prerequisite here because its not much used in precedent. However, logically I see where you are coming from this and completely understand it if you want to keep it. Having things make more sense is more important then precendent.
    However, it could be similarly simulated by using BAB instead of Ref save as the prereq, and I recommend you do such if you include the free attack.

    The reason its only 5 ranks is because while you will want alot of ranks to get the most use out of this feat, it should be possible to those that want to use it cross-purpose/class in a more limited fashion. It's just a minor point, since you will need to max Tumble to get anywhere with it regardless. However, it does allow it to be picked up earlier if so desired and then have someone dump ranks in Tumble a bit later.

    You should design feats/options with more then 1 practical use. Even if it highly favors one use mainly (like PA with THF) it still has others (like PA with 1HF/S&B).
    Last edited by Kizara; 2008-09-14 at 04:06 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Stycotl's Avatar

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    when i was first coming up with it, i was intending to make a low-level tactical feat. i like tactical feats more than most others because they give you lots of options. but i had a ridiculously hard time thinking of any other benefits. maybe i should make this free tumble as an AoO one of the benefits, then give some related setup that gives the free attack, also working off of AoO attempts for the round, and that might be it, unless i can think of any others. with the prereqs as they are, though i do think i will lower the tumble prereq, it would easily qualify for tactical status.

    thanks for the input. aaron out.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Stycotl's Avatar

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    hmm, so it dawned on me that i had never bothered to post my eventual fix to this feat idea of mine. i have played it once, at 9th level or so, and it seemed to work fine, but it could still use some tweaks. i did end up merging the tumble check and the attack into one, partly because it was too weak without it, and partly because i couldn't think up anything else in order to make a good tactical feat.

    since then though, i have thought of some kind of mechanic that allows you to utilize the unused movement from your tumble check to move back out of the way of your foe. most of the time, i think people would want to stay there, adjacent to the foe once they tumble into his reach. but if you could pick your square–so long as you had enough movement left–then you could really move around the board a lot with this feat, all while gaining an attack every time some longarmed monster takes a bad swing at you.

    so, anyone have any thoughts as to whether making this into an immediate act spring attack would be a good idea or not? i'd obviously have to add a few feats to the prereqs, but other than that, it wouldn't have to change too much.
    my own diabolical experiments (homebrew)

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    Announcer— “Your cable television is experiencing difficulties. Please do not panic. Resist the temptation to read or talk to loved ones. Do not attempt sexual relations, as years of TV radiation have left your genitals withered and useless.”

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizara View Post
    Tumble:

    When you attempt to Tumble in combat to avoid an Attack of Opportunity, your Tumble check is opposed by your opponent’s attack roll. Essentially, you still provoke but your Tumble check serves as your AC. Your opponent must still hit your normal AC to hit you.
    But that would waste the opponent's AoO for that round. There's a difference between you avoiding the opponent, and you whisking past the opponent so that they don't even bother to try to hit you.

    I mean, that's the fluff of it anyway.

    It's better for the opponent (since they don't lose AoO against people who have high tumble) and maybe a feat with combat reflexes as a prereq would allow them to hit tumblers in this way?

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Stycotl's Avatar

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    Default Re: 20' reach? not a problem anymore (3.5 feat)

    Quote Originally Posted by imp_fireball View Post
    But that would waste the opponent's AoO for that round. There's a difference between you avoiding the opponent, and you whisking past the opponent so that they don't even bother to try to hit you.

    I mean, that's the fluff of it anyway.

    It's better for the opponent (since they don't lose AoO against people who have high tumble) and maybe a feat with combat reflexes as a prereq would allow them to hit tumblers in this way?
    is this in relation to my feat or kizara's houserules?
    my own diabolical experiments (homebrew)

    my deviantART

    my alter ego

    Campaigns
    Watchtower––Volume III (running since 2008)

    Announcer— “Your cable television is experiencing difficulties. Please do not panic. Resist the temptation to read or talk to loved ones. Do not attempt sexual relations, as years of TV radiation have left your genitals withered and useless.”

    Wiggum, checking— “Well I'll be damned.”

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