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Thread: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
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2008-09-13, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Undead are immune to ability damage and ability drain, however, Ray of Enfeeblement notes a strength Penalty; is this totally different or are my players trying to trick me using technicality of a word?
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2008-09-13, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
They're right, it's different. Practically everything can be affected by a penalty.
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2008-09-13, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Nope, your players are right. It also works on Plants and Elementals.
Constructs remain immune, because they are not subject to Necromantic effects.
Edit: Ninja'd.Last edited by RandomLunatic; 2008-09-13 at 08:18 PM.
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2008-09-13, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Other consequences of this technical difference:
1) it doesn't stack with itself
2) it cannot crit
3) it can be dispelledLike 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
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2008-09-13, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Okay! Thank you very much!
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2008-09-13, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
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2008-09-13, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
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2008-09-13, 11:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-14, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Whaaa?
Crap. I'm not in the game anymore, but I was playing in a campaign where practically all my sorcerer ever did was Enfeeble everyone and everything down to 0 STR...
It doesn't stack? That stinks.Current Games:
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2008-09-14, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Well, if you're high enough level their are other spells that could have done it that WOULD stack, as far as I know. I think there was a spell called moon bolt or something like that in SpC that did Str damage and is considered really good. And, of course, if you wanted to switch up the ability you're damaging, there's the ever-popular (i.e., oft-reviled) shivering touch from Frostburn.
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2008-09-14, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
It's a little confusing... the one-line blurb in the list says that it does strength damage, but the spell itself specifies a penalty. Of course, text trumps table.
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2008-09-14, 01:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Well, like I said, I'm not playing him anymore, but he was level 3. He had hit five by the time I quit playing. No, not exactly high enough for anything better.
And the DM kept complaining because I hadn't built him as a blaster. He was of the opinion that any mage without fireball isn't a mage at all.
I'm actually kind of glad I'm not in that campaign anymore...Last edited by Ascension; 2008-09-14 at 01:08 AM.
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2008-09-14, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Even if it did stack, The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.
Taken exactly as written, this could lead to some amusing consequences - "1000000 strength damage? Still moving, sorry, I Enfeebled myself a minute ago."
Even with a more sensible interpretation, it still limits the spell to weakening monsters rather than outright paralyzing them.Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
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2008-09-14, 04:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
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2008-09-14, 05:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Add "Fortitude Negates" if you like your games to make sense and not be silly.
The idea that you use what is essentially a negative energy spell to lower the strength of a (possibly incorperal) undead creature is just ridiculous.
Furthermore, its unbalanced (like ALL of the "touch attack and no save and your F'ED" spells are).Last edited by Kizara; 2008-09-14 at 05:37 AM.
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2008-09-14, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
That's why you follow up with Ray of Fatigue. Twice, if necessary.Common sense is not so common.
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SpoilerOriginally Posted by I'm da Rogue!
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2008-09-14, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
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2008-09-14, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Actually, I thought undead were vulnerable to mental ability damage (they are indeed immune to all forms of ability drain, as well as physical ability damage). I'm trying to remember where I saw it; obviously if -any- creature has a score of '-', you can't damage it (such as a Zombie's Intelligence score).
That, and Strength 1 is still pretty sad. I wonder if there's a method to take advantage of a creature's carrying capacity during a fight. Regardless, that target's melee ability is completely raped (which is the intent, I suspect; squishy says, 'Do not try to come over here and hit me -_-.')"Come play in the darkness with me."
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2008-09-14, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
It is simple from a powergamers viewpoint, rays=amazing
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2008-09-14, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Yeah, I've seen it happen before. In one game I was playing we were fighting some ghasts and their troglodyte spellcaster buddies and the Rogue got hit with both some Str-decreasing thing AND the Ghast's Stench AND the paralysis for a bit. Basically, she was paralyzed for a bit and when that ended, she was still sickened and could move at all because of her low Str (Halfling + non-Str-using class + Str damage = unfortunate). She was basically encumbered from just carrying a crossbow and wearing armor or something like that.
Also, I think creatures get penalties to flight if they're encumbered, so ray of exhaustion and its ilk could be a good way to limit that kind of thing.The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
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2008-09-14, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Since when does Ray of Enfeeblement not stack? I've never heard that particular ruling. I've always played with it stacking, otherwise what's the point of it? A very minor penalty? Maybe -2 to hit/damage if you roll well?
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2008-09-14, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Hi
Someone said it can't crit? ALL attacks can crit, just some creatures are immune to crit.
Normal crit for rays is 20x2 damage.
Cheers
Paul H
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2008-09-14, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
at level 1 it will drain up to 6 str...this is NOT a minor penalty.
-3 to hit and damage at level 1 is devestating, throw it at your players with a sorcerer and you'll see what i mean.
as levels increase it gets slightly better with +1 per 2 levels until +5 at level 10. even then draining 11 strength can be battle changing. -5 to hit and at least -5 damage (more if two handed weapon user) hurts a lot.
my campaign is undead heavy, certain of these undead are affected by a template that enables casting of certain spells, including ray of enfeeblement, kelgores grave mist and ray of exhaustion.
no saves against the first two in exchange for -d6+3 str, fatigue and d6 cold damage and finally exhaustion (save to resist, but if passed you become fatigued...unless already fatigued in which case you're automatically exhausted.
total: (assum total roll is 6) -12 str(exhaustion replaces fatigue rather than stacking with it)
minor penalty? no save.78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2008-09-14, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-14, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Since effects of the same type never ever stacked?
Did you ever bother with reading PHB?
Originally Posted by "SRDLast edited by Gorbash; 2008-09-14 at 05:00 PM.
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SpoilerOriginally Posted by I'm da Rogue!
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2008-09-14, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
where is the creature, which is not a spellcaster, getting these spells from exactly?
in a fight between bbeg the wizard/sorcerer casting these on him has finished a fight, unless the bbeg is immune.
for a spell of level 1, 2 and 3
seems fair to me78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2008-09-14, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
if this thread is a 4e thread then play 3.5
if this thread is a 3.5 thread then play 4e
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2008-09-14, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Someone said it can't crit? ALL attacks can crit, just some creatures are immune to crit.
Normal crit for rays is 20x2 damage.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
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2008-09-14, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
The undead type in the SRD/MM tells us that undead are:
"Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects."
You can get a critical with a ray of enfeeblement, but since it deals no damage, the fact it's a critical hit changes nothing at all.
As for the stacking, Gorbash provided the quote for the rule that was referred to. Penalties do not stack if they are from the same source (the same spell, etc.). Ability damage "stacks" - or, rather, it is applied cumulatively.
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2008-09-14, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement
Let's say the ray of enfeeblement was Split and Twinned, giving us four rays. The penalty assigned would still be 1d6+1/2CL if they're all used on one target (thus making those metamagics a waste of spell slots when used in that way on this spell), right?
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