GMs, Ray of Enfeeblement

[Faithdreamer]

Undead are immune to ability damage and ability drain, however, Ray of Enfeeblement notes a strength Penalty; is this totally different or are my players trying to trick me using technicality of a word?

[tyckspoon]

They're right, it's different. Practically everything can be affected by a penalty.

[RandomLunatic]

Nope, your players are right. It also works on Plants and Elementals.

Constructs remain immune, because they are not subject to Necromantic effects.

Edit: Ninja'd.

[Douglas]

Other consequences of this technical difference:
1) it doesn't stack with itself
2) it cannot crit
3) it can be dispelled

[Faithdreamer]

Okay! Thank you very much!

[Tsotha-lanti]

Other consequences of this technical difference:
1) it doesn't stack with itself

This is the important one - if you hit something with multiple rays of enfeeblement, the effect is non-cumulative, since they come from the same source. However, penalties from different sources - ray of enfeeblement and some other spell, for instance - will stack.

[Thurbane]

Other consequences of this technical difference:
1) it doesn't stack with itself
2) it cannot crit
3) it can be dispelled

True enough, but it can be Maximized and Empowered...

[Douglas]

True enough, but it can be Maximized and Empowered...

Yes, but that would be true regardless.

[Ascension]

Whaaa?

Crap. I'm not in the game anymore, but I was playing in a campaign where practically all my sorcerer ever did was Enfeeble everyone and everything down to 0 STR...

It doesn't stack? That stinks.

[RTGoodman]

Whaaa?

Crap. I'm not in the game anymore, but I was playing in a campaign where practically all my sorcerer ever did was Enfeeble everyone and everything down to 0 STR...

It doesn't stack? That stinks.

Well, if you're high enough level their are other spells that could have done it that WOULD stack, as far as I know. I think there was a spell called moon bolt or something like that in SpC that did Str damage and is considered really good. And, of course, if you wanted to switch up the ability you're damaging, there's the ever-popular (i.e., oft-reviled) shivering touch from Frostburn.

[kjones]

It's a little confusing... the one-line blurb in the list says that it does strength damage, but the spell itself specifies a penalty. Of course, text trumps table.

[Ascension]

Well, if you're high enough level their are other spells that could have done it that WOULD stack, as far as I know.

Well, like I said, I'm not playing him anymore, but he was level 3. He had hit five by the time I quit playing. No, not exactly high enough for anything better.

And the DM kept complaining because I hadn't built him as a blaster. He was of the opinion that any mage without fireball isn't a mage at all.

I'm actually kind of glad I'm not in that campaign anymore...

[Douglas]

Whaaa?

Crap. I'm not in the game anymore, but I was playing in a campaign where practically all my sorcerer ever did was Enfeeble everyone and everything down to 0 STR...

It doesn't stack? That stinks.

Even if it did stack, The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.

Taken exactly as written, this could lead to some amusing consequences - "1000000 strength damage? Still moving, sorry, I Enfeebled myself a minute ago."

Even with a more sensible interpretation, it still limits the spell to weakening monsters rather than outright paralyzing them.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Even if it did stack, The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.

Taken exactly as written, this could lead to some amusing consequences - "1000000 strength damage? Still moving, sorry, I Enfeebled myself a minute ago."

Even with a more sensible interpretation, it still limits the spell to weakening monsters rather than outright paralyzing them.

That's why you follow up with Ray of Fatigue. Twice, if necessary.

[Kizara]

Add "Fortitude Negates" if you like your games to make sense and not be silly.

The idea that you use what is essentially a negative energy spell to lower the strength of a (possibly incorperal) undead creature is just ridiculous.

Furthermore, its unbalanced (like ALL of the "touch attack and no save and your F'ED" spells are).

[Gorbash]

That's why you follow up with Ray of Fatigue. Twice, if necessary.

Undead are immune to fatigue.

[Keld Denar]

Undead are immune to fatigue.

Exactly...you never see a zombie, shambling along moaning "BRAINS" over and over suddenly get tired and sit down on a park bench for a quick breather. Just the tireless shuffling in pursuit of that tasty, tasty flesh!

[Edea]

Undead are immune to ability damage and ability drain, however, Ray of Enfeeblement notes a strength Penalty; is this totally different or are my players trying to trick me using technicality of a word?

Actually, I thought undead were vulnerable to mental ability damage (they are indeed immune to all forms of ability drain, as well as physical ability damage). I'm trying to remember where I saw it; obviously if -any- creature has a score of '-', you can't damage it (such as a Zombie's Intelligence score).

That, and Strength 1 is still pretty sad. I wonder if there's a method to take advantage of a creature's carrying capacity during a fight. Regardless, that target's melee ability is completely raped (which is the intent, I suspect; squishy says, 'Do not try to come over here and hit me -_-.')

[GrandMasterMe]

It is simple from a powergamers viewpoint, rays=amazing

[RTGoodman]

That, and Strength 1 is still pretty sad. I wonder if there's a method to take advantage of a creature's carrying capacity during a fight. Regardless, that target's melee ability is completely raped (which is the intent, I suspect; squishy says, 'Do not try to come over here and hit me -_-.')

Yeah, I've seen it happen before. In one game I was playing we were fighting some ghasts and their troglodyte spellcaster buddies and the Rogue got hit with both some Str-decreasing thing AND the Ghast's Stench AND the paralysis for a bit. Basically, she was paralyzed for a bit and when that ended, she was still sickened and could move at all because of her low Str (Halfling + non-Str-using class + Str damage = unfortunate). She was basically encumbered from just carrying a crossbow and wearing armor or something like that.

Also, I think creatures get penalties to flight if they're encumbered, so ray of exhaustion and its ilk could be a good way to limit that kind of thing.

[Sholos]

Since when does Ray of Enfeeblement not stack? I've never heard that particular ruling. I've always played with it stacking, otherwise what's the point of it? A very minor penalty? Maybe -2 to hit/damage if you roll well?

[Paul H]

Hi

Someone said it can't crit? ALL attacks can crit, just some creatures are immune to crit.

Normal crit for rays is 20x2 damage.

Cheers
Paul H

[its_all_ogre]

at level 1 it will drain up to 6 str...this is NOT a minor penalty.
-3 to hit and damage at level 1 is devestating, throw it at your players with a sorcerer and you'll see what i mean.
as levels increase it gets slightly better with +1 per 2 levels until +5 at level 10. even then draining 11 strength can be battle changing. -5 to hit and at least -5 damage (more if two handed weapon user) hurts a lot.

my campaign is undead heavy, certain of these undead are affected by a template that enables casting of certain spells, including ray of enfeeblement, kelgores grave mist and ray of exhaustion.
no saves against the first two in exchange for -d6+3 str, fatigue and d6 cold damage and finally exhaustion (save to resist, but if passed you become fatigued...unless already fatigued in which case you're automatically exhausted.
total: (assum total roll is 6) -12 str(exhaustion replaces fatigue rather than stacking with it)
minor penalty? no save.

[Flickerdart]

at level 1 it will drain up to 6 str...this is NOT a minor penalty.
-3 to hit and damage at level 1 is devestating, throw it at your players with a sorcerer and you'll see what i mean.
as levels increase it gets slightly better with +1 per 2 levels until +5 at level 10. even then draining 11 strength can be battle changing. -5 to hit and at least -5 damage (more if two handed weapon user) hurts a lot.

my campaign is undead heavy, certain of these undead are affected by a template that enables casting of certain spells, including ray of enfeeblement, kelgores grave mist and ray of exhaustion.
no saves against the first two in exchange for -d6+3 str, fatigue and d6 cold damage and finally exhaustion (save to resist, but if passed you become fatigued...unless already fatigued in which case you're automatically exhausted.
total: (assum total roll is 6) -12 str(exhaustion replaces fatigue rather than stacking with it)
minor penalty? no save.

Ok, so you just wasted three actions to inhibit one PC, where a simple Web or Grease could have done almost as good a job on an area. Or Wall of Ice, that's always fun.

[Gorbash]

Since when does Ray of Enfeeblement not stack? I've never heard that particular ruling. I've always played with it stacking, otherwise what's the point of it? A very minor penalty? Maybe -2 to hit/damage if you roll well?

Since effects of the same type never ever stacked?

Did you ever bother with reading PHB?

Stacking Effects

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...tackingEffects

[its_all_ogre]

where is the creature, which is not a spellcaster, getting these spells from exactly?
in a fight between bbeg the wizard/sorcerer casting these on him has finished a fight, unless the bbeg is immune.
for a spell of level 1, 2 and 3
seems fair to me

[its_all_ogre]

Hi

Someone said it can't crit? ALL attacks can crit, just some creatures are immune to crit.

Normal crit for rays is 20x2 damage.

Cheers
Paul H

attacks can crit in order to do extra damage.
no damage is caused so yes you can do x2 damage...none still

[Chronos]

Someone said it can't crit? ALL attacks can crit, just some creatures are immune to crit.

Normal crit for rays is 20x2 damage.

So you're saying that in this case, if it critted, it'd do 2*0 damage, instead of 0 damage?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Actually, I thought undead were vulnerable to mental ability damage (they are indeed immune to all forms of ability drain, as well as physical ability damage). I'm trying to remember where I saw it; obviously if -any- creature has a score of '-', you can't damage it (such as a Zombie's Intelligence score).

The undead type in the SRD/MM tells us that undead are:
"Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects."

Someone said it can't crit? ALL attacks can crit, just some creatures are immune to crit.

You can get a critical with a ray of enfeeblement, but since it deals no damage, the fact it's a critical hit changes nothing at all.

As for the stacking, Gorbash provided the quote for the rule that was referred to. Penalties do not stack if they are from the same source (the same spell, etc.). Ability damage "stacks" - or, rather, it is applied cumulatively.

[Edea]

Let's say the ray of enfeeblement was Split and Twinned, giving us four rays. The penalty assigned would still be 1d6+1/2CL if they're all used on one target (thus making those metamagics a waste of spell slots when used in that way on this spell), right?