Readied actions and the 5 foot step

[Bandededed]

Is it possible to ready an action to take a five foot step should your opponent do so?

Thus, should a fighter get into melee range, he can always stay in melee range so long as he readies his "free" action to ready his five foot step.

Does this work?

[Orran]

Yes he could ready an action to 5ft follow his opponent, but it takes a standard action to do so, making it pointless.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Is it possible to ready an action to take a five foot step should your opponent do so?

Thus, should a fighter get into melee range, he can always stay in melee range so long as he readies his "free" action to ready his five foot step.

Does this work?

Yes and no. Readying an action, no matter what the action is, requires your Standard Action. So you could ready to 5' step, but doing so would not only require your Standard Action, but would also move your Initiative to the same as your Opponent's. Not worth it, unless you're facing a Mage and are an AoO-monkey-in which case, why the hell don't you have Thicket of Blades?!?

[Matthew]

It depends how leniant your game master is:

Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Technically, you could have a character ready an action to attack an enemy who attempts to move away or attacks (if you can conceive of the two as being one condition, such as "takes a threatening action"). Then you would either attack just prior to their attack, or be able to attack as they moved away (which you could then follow up with a 5' move). The latter also requires that the attack and 5' move take place after the opponent moves. If the opponent attacks and then moves 5' away, you could follow 5' and take an attack (again requiring a lenient interpretation by the game master).

As pointed out above, this is pretty pointless in regular combat, though if you are 'covering' an enemy, then it has some purpose.

[Curmudgeon]

Is it possible to ready an action to take a five foot step should your opponent do so?

Does this work?

By RAW, not by itself. You can't ready a "not an action" (which is the category for a 5' adjustment) by itself, but you can ready any trivial free action, such as raising an eyebrow, and add a 5' step to that.

Aren't rules fun?

[emeraldstreak]

It depends how leniant your game master is:

Technically, you could have a character ready an action to attack an enemy who attempts to move away or attacks (if you can conceive of the two as being one condition, such as "takes a threatening action"). Then you would either attack just prior to their attack, or be able to attack as they moved away (which you could then follow up with a 5' move). The latter also requires that the attack and 5' move take place after the opponent moves. If the opponent attacks and then moves 5' away, you could follow 5' and take an attack (again requiring a lenient interpretation by the game master).

As pointed out above, this is pretty pointless in regular combat, though if you are 'covering' an enemy, then it has some purpose.

1. No DM leniency is needed. The rules on Ready Action + 5ft step are clear enough.

2. It's a great combat stunt for pwning noobs on arenas.

[Zeful]

By RAW, not by itself. You can't ready a "not an action" (which is the category for a 5' adjustment) by itself, but you can ready any trivial free action, such as raising an eyebrow, and add a 5' step to that.

Aren't rules fun?

"I ready an action to raise an eyebrow should the enemy move away. Then take a 5 ft step."

[Matthew]

1. No DM leniency is needed. The rules on Ready Action + 5ft step are clear enough.

2. It's a great combat stunt for pwning noobs on arenas.

You are either misreading me, or misunderstanding the rules. I don't know which (perhaps both?).

"I ready an action to raise an eyebrow should the enemy move away. Then take a 5 ft step."

It would have to be something more along the lines of "I ready an action to raise an eyebrow should this enemy end up 5' away from me." This is because the action technically occurs just before the action that triggers it. As I understand it, you don't need to explicitly prepare the 5-foot step as part of your readied action, you can take it as long as you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

In most cases where you want to react to an opponent moving away, you might as well use the delay action; the ready action is more for when you want to act before an opponent. Exceptions to this are when the opponent is taking a five foot step to avoid an attack of opportunity that would otherwise result from their full round or standard action (such as spell casting, using a reach weapon, or shooting/throwing a ranged weapon). In those cases, you ready your action to react to their attack, rather than their move.

Example: An orc armed with a falchion is adjacent to Soveliss the elf ranger, who is armed with a long bow. The orc suspects that his opponent will take a five foot step back on his turn and use a full round action to shoot with his bow. The orc therefore readies a standard action to attack Soveliss if he attacks.

Possible permutations:

1a) Soveliss takes a five foot step and declares an attack
1b) The orc's readied action occurs, he takes a five foot step and attacks
1c) Soveliss attempts to shoot his bow
1d) The orc gets an attack of opportunity
1e) Soveliss takes two rapid shots

2a) Soveliss declares an attack
2b) The orc's readied action occurs
2c) Soveliss attempts to shoot his bow
2d) The orc gets an attack of opportunity
2e) Soveliss takes two rapid shots

3a) Soveliss uses a move action to get away
3b) The orc gets an attack of opportunity
3c) Soveliss uses an attack action to take a shot

4a) Soveliss uses a full round action to withdraw

5a) Soveliss drops his bow and quickly draws his swords
5b) Soveliss attempts to attack
5c) The orc's readied action occurs
5d) Soveliss attacks with his swords

A lot depends on the orc predicting Soveliss' action and choosing the correct one to ready.

[snoopy13a]

You are either misreading me, or misunderstanding the rules. I don't know which (perhaps both?).


It would have to be something more along the lines of "I ready an action to raise an eyebrow should this enemy end up 5' away from me." This is because the action technically occurs just before the action that triggers it. As I understand it, you don't need to explicitly prepare the 5-foot step as part of your readied action, you can take it as long as you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

In most cases where you want to react to an opponent moving away, you might as well use the delay action

Actually, I think both would work:

A) Reading free action if enemy ends up 5' away from me
1) Enemy takes a 5' step
2) Player raises eyebrow when enemy is 5' away, since it is a condition and not an action, enemy does not have an action to finish after the readied action such as casting a spell or loosing an arrow
3) Player can act


B) Reading free action if enemy starts to move
1) Enemy is going to move but this triggers the player's free action
2) Player raises eyebrow
3) Enemy moves, finishing their triggered action
4) Player can now finish turn

[Bandededed]

So perhaps the readied action should be worded - "I ready a 5 foot step so that, should my enemy initiate a 5 foot step action and end that action in a square that my reach does not threaten, I take my action to keep him in my threatened area,"

I was mostly thinking about it in regards to a fighter v. wizard thread, where wizard supporters often repeated "5 foot step, cast spell, rinse, repeat," This, of course, doesn't resolve the issue of the concentration checks, but I thought it might be a start.

Also: Eyebrow raise optional

Edit: I was considering, that after the first round where you hold your actions to allow for the following movement, you could full attack the wizard every round, while also keeping him threatened.

[Matthew]

Caught me expanding my commentary above.

B) Readying free action if enemy starts to move
1) Enemy is going to move but this triggers the player's free action
2) Player raises eyebrow
3) Enemy moves, finishing their triggered action
4) Player can now finish turn

A five foot step is technically "No Action" that takes place before, after or during your action. It would be up to the game master whether to allow it to take place after both your action and your opponent's action.

[edit] Dropped the question into the Simple Q&A thread.

So perhaps the readied action should be worded - "I ready a 5 foot step so that, should my enemy initiate a 5 foot step action and end that action in a square that my reach does not threaten, I take my action to keep him in my threatened area,"

I was mostly thinking about it in regards to a fighter v. wizard thread, where wizard supporters often repeated "5 foot step, cast spell, rinse, repeat," This, of course, doesn't resolve the issue of the concentration checks, but I thought it might be a start.

Also: Eyebrow raise optional

Edit: I was considering, that after the first round where you hold your actions to allow for the following movement, you could full attack the wizard every round, while also keeping him threatened.

The fighter would be best served by readying his action to attack the wizard if he attempts to cast a spell.

Example: Regdar, a fighter armed with a long sword is adjacent to a goblin wizard, who is armed with dagger. Regdar suspects that his opponent will take a five foot step back on his turn and use a full round action to cast a spell. Regdar therefore readies a standard action to attack the goblin wizard if he attempts to cast a spell.

Possible Permutations:

1a) The goblin wizard takes a five foot step back
1b) The goblin wizard attempts to cast a spell as a full round action
1c) Redgar's readied action occurs, he takes a five foot step and attacks
1d) The goblin wizard casts his spell (or not, depending on the result of Redgar's attack)

2a) The goblin wizard attempts to cast a spell as a full round action
2b) Redgar's readied action occurs, he attacks the goblin wizard
2c) Redgar gets an attack of opportunity against the goblin wizard
2d) The goblin wizard casts his spell (or not, depending on the result of Redgar's attack)

3a) The goblin wizard uses a move action to retreat from Regdar
3b) Redgar gets an attack of opportunity against the goblin wizard
3c) The goblin wizard casts a spell that is a standard action

4a) The goblin wizard uses a full round action to withdraw

[Person_Man]

I think the combo you're looking for is Thicket of Blades (ToB) + reach weapon + Evasive Reflexes (ToB) + Robilar's Gambit (PHBII) + Karmic Strike or Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Eqpt.) or a DC 40 Tumble check or magic rollerskates or something similar. Enemy moves toward you or attacks, and you get a free 10 ft step.

It's also worth mentioning that with flight or a climb speed, it's pretty easy to avoid melee attacks from 90% of your enemies while always getting a chance to attack them as well.

[Keld Denar]

Readying a 5' step as part of an attack is the only way a non-ranged, non-spellcaster without a reach weapon can fight a smart Dread Wraith. With 60' move, perfect fly, and spring attack, the DW can pop out of the wall, close to within 10', attack, and withdraw to the wall (or floor). Without being able to ready a 5' step, Johnny Greatsword has no chance to hurt him before his CON hits 0 and he spends the rest of his unlife moaning woefully about his lack of polearm training.

The most important part, which makes it hard to tie down wizards, is the fact that you can only take a 5' step as part of a readied action if you haven't already moved in a round, not even a 5' step. So, your fighter spends his move action to move up next to the wizard and readies an attack to disrupt him. The wizard confidently steps 5' back and casts, and the fighter can't do anything about it (unless he has a reach weapon). The next round, the fighter steps 5' forward and readies again, and the wizard steps 5' back again and casts, because the fighter can't 5' as part of his readied action again, because he moved.

The 5' step as part of a readied action is more of a defensive thing than an offensive thing, because the defender almost always has mobility advantage since the attacker has to move.

That's why reach weapons are so important to a fighter who wishes to be caster consciensious. That way the fighter can move up adjacent to the caster and ready, and the caster has to either tumble, teleport, cast a quickened spell, or take a shot to the mouth.

[Frosty]

I allow my players to ready a standard action AND a 5-ft step, assuming they haven't already sued it that round.

So if a mage 5-ft steps back to start casting, you can 5-ft step with them and also make an attack, and then possibly get an AoO if the mage does not cast defensively.

[Matthew]

I allow my players to ready a standard action AND a 5-ft step, assuming they haven't already sued it that round.

So if a mage 5-ft steps back to start casting, you can 5-ft step with them and also make an attack, and then possibly get an AoO if the mage does not cast defensively.

House Rule

I rule that if a spell caster takes damage between his last action and his current one, he has to make a concentration check to cast a spell (perhaps multiple checks if he was hit more than once). That can nicely ruin the spell slinging bastards' day. "Oh no, you nerfed the spell caster!"