[4e] The Problem With Wizards

[Yakk]

I was thinking what a 2nd Controller class would look like, when I realized there is a problem.

If you look at the existing Defender classes, every Defender has a Mark class feature. This feature also lets them do damage (or otherwise hinder) Marked opponents who choose to ignore the Defender, thus encouraging enemies to attack the Defender. There are generally some interesting rules about who is Marked, which generates a sub-game for the Defender to play in combat.

If you look at the existing Striker classes, every Striker has an 'extra damage' class feature. This lets them, once per round, on qualifying enemies, deal damage above-and-beyond their base attack to the target. There is generally some interesting rules about who is a valid target for this extra damage, which generates a sub-game for the Striker to play in combat.

If you look at the existing Leader classes, they all have a twice per encounter ability to allow someone else to burn a healing surge, while boosting the amount healed by some amount. There is the common sub-game implied by this class feature of keeping track of all of your allies hit points, status in combat, and healing surges remaining.

If you look at the one Controller, I am at a loss to determine what the "Common Controller" feature would be. As there is only one Controller, it could simply be one of the class features that the Wizard has, or something similar to it -- but, the Wizard just seems to have an eclectic mix of nearly random class features that don't really line up with anything I"d expect to be a core Controller feature.

Now, in each case, the powers of the class tend to bend towards the role of the class. Defender powers tend to be self-heals, powers that damage people who attack the Defender, or powers that encourage people to attack the Defender. Striker powers tend to be extra damaging, and often decrease the AC or Defenses of a single target. Leader powers tend to enhance the other player's abilities, or heal them. And controller powers tend to hit more than 1 target, or utterly cripple a single target (compared to other powers of the same level).

But that's just the powers. With power-swap feats, you can access the powers of other classes. And there are often 'similar quality' powers copied from one class to another, with slight differences.

In a sense, the Features of a class should be core in defining that class, and I'd argue defining that classes role. And Wizard features fail at this.

I'd like to see what the 2nd Controller looks like, and if they are going to provide a common controller feature.

[RTGoodman]

I think I've mentioned it before, but personally I believe the Controller role's defining "class feature" is versatility - the Wizards, moreso than anyone else, gets to choose three different implements that each give a special option in combat, gets to know more spells/powers and can switch between then, and generally has a wide selection of powers with different effects (various damage types, various areas and numbers of targets, different conditions, etc.). I expect other Controllers will have a similar layout. Compare this to, say, Paladins (because I'm playing one and know more about it) - they get a class feature that gives choices (Channel Divinity), but it's not a huge bonus; they DON'T get a spellbook or anything and, like everyone but the Wizard, are sort of stuck with their selection of powers barring retraining and replacing powers; and most of their powers are focused on Radiant, Healing, and/or Weapon keywords. I mean, yes the powers aren't the best way to distinguish between classes and roles because of the innate similarity in some cases, but someone that multiclasses as a Wizard has a much larger variety of types of powers to choose from, rather than someone who multiclasses Paladin having to pick which Weapon attack they want and whether it gives 2 temporary HP or a +2 attack or whatever.

Or I could be wrong, in which case you're right - there's not really anything in particular that links them all together.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Personally, it just makes it that much easier to multi-class wizard without the guilt of losing out on class features. A whole party of semi-control freaks is better than one OCD afflicted geezer. Right?

[Yakk]

Sure, Wizard powers contribute to the controller role -- but ... powers can be purchased via multi-class feats, and the other roles have a bunch of features that help them out.

The "spellbook" as the defining feature seems ... well, spellbooks require memorization the night before. So it isn't very useful in an actual fight.

Having a choice between implement powers is ... that's a build choice, not a matter of versatility of the actual character. That is like saying the Fighter gets to pick between 2 handed and 1 handed weapons is a source of versatility in the Fighter (when in effect it makes each individual fighter less versatile -- a Paladin can carry a 2 handed and 1 handed+shield with them, and be just as effective with either option -- can pick on the fly. A fighter is mostly locked into one or the other (and often to a particular type of weapon, with power selection)).

[Tellah]

The Wizard does have a controller-ish class feature: Orb of Imposition. It was a mistake of design that the wand and staff are useless to a controller, so I discount them entirely in analyzing the class.

I expect that future controllers will have a class feature similar to Orb of Imposition: a minor action, per-encounter ability to extend shutdown effects, penalize saves, or something similar. If I were designing them:

*Divine controller: Voice of the Gods. Impose a -2 penalty to saving throws on all enemies within a burst 2 radius until the end of your next turn.
*Psychic controller: Crippling Thought. Immediate reaction, triggered by an opponent making a successful saving throw. Force opponent to reroll the saving throw and take the new value.
*Martial controller: Enduring Tactics. Powers you use this round that would end at the end of your next turn last one additional turn.

[Burley]

Implement Mastery is, in my opinion, not a Controller thing at all. Warlocks are strikers and have Boon Pacts. Seems to me that certain classes just let you pick the kinds of bonuses you get.

[Starsinger]

I thought the over abundance of area attacks and sustain powers were what made a controller.

[Theodoric]

Implement Mastery is, in my opinion, not a Controller thing at all. Warlocks are strikers and have Boon Pacts. Seems to me that certain classes just let you pick the kinds of bonuses you get.

In my opinion Fey Pact Warlocks qualify more as Controllers than as Strikers; while they usually don't enforce direct control of the battlefield as Wizards do, they still can mess up any DM's tactics.
Boon Pacts are a whole class of ability unto themselves, again, IMHO.

[Beleriphon]

I thought the over abundance of area attacks and sustain powers were what made a controller.

I'd say this is it. Area attacks and goon (minion) sweeping are the controller's forte. That affect the battlefield itself rather than individual creatures, or allies.

[Saph]

I think the Controller Feature that Wizards have is "Have At-Will Powers That Aren't Boring." :P

If you take a look, the at-will powers for most classes are pretty dull - they do a little damage to one target, with a minor secondary effect, and that's it. In some cases the choices for a class are so limited that playing a Human is almost counterproductive - there's no good third at-will power to pick. Wizards, on the other hand, get a great selection, so much so that I'm always tempted to play a Human just for the third choice.

- Saph

[Arbitrarity]

I think the Controller Feature that Wizards have is "Have At-Will Powers That Aren't Boring." :P

If you take a look, the at-will powers for most classes are pretty dull - they do a little damage to one target, with a minor secondary effect, and that's it. In some cases the choices for a class are so limited that playing a Human is almost counterproductive - there's no good third at-will power to pick. Wizards, on the other hand, get a great selection, so much so that I'm always tempted to play a Human just for the third choice.

- Saph

Very true. While my allies flail with their "attack, do damage on a miss", or "two attacks", or "attack, give a bonus to hit", I get "Attack, shove enemies into huge group of allies, who dog-pile them". Or "Attack, target can't move far enough to reach anyone". Or "Attack, burninate a bunch of minions".
Except my DM planned for the "burninate minions" bit, and I rarely succeed in catching more than 2 enemies in a burst 1.

[Yakk]

What if we wanted to add a controller feature?

First, give every Wizard magic missile, free of charge.

Orb Mastery:
Gain Spell Focus as a bonus feat at level 1. (Yes, it's a paragon tier feat).
Your special save modifier power is reduced to 2+1/2 wisdom bonus (round down). Special: In order to use this power, you must be using an Orb as an implement.

(Note that this is better, other than in extreme cases, than the standard feature)

When using a burst, blast or area power, you may add 1 square to the power's area off effect that is adjacent to it. This does not always add to the number of targets. In order to use this feature, you must be using an Orb as your implement for the power.

(As an example, Daggers doesn't attack two targets, but two squares take damage at the start of their turn...)

Wand Mastery:
Wand Threat + Wizard Utility Feature
Range 10 + Minor action, Implement
Target: One enemy
Effect: Until the start of your next turn, you threaten the target. You may respond to any action that provokes an opportunity attack with a basic ranged attack.
Special: This power requires that you use your wand as an implement.

Staff Mastery:
Whenever you hit a target with a power using a staff as your implement, you may shift that target 1 square. You may use this power to shift up to a total of your Con modifier squares per encounter

----

All of those are +real+ controller features.

[Draz74]

Cantrips are the Controller class feature.

[DM Raven]

You don't really need to have an "across-the-board" power to define a role. The controller's unique ability is how he can control the battlefield with his powers. His damage attacks are split between devistating status effect inducing powers and aoe damage over large groups of enemies. (At least for wizards.)

A druid might make an interesting second controller with nature spells that influence the battlefield but they could also throw aspects of a defender or striker (Much like the paladin is a sort of defender/leader hybrid class) into the class.

[Shadow_Elf]

I agree that it is versatility that makes a controller.
I play a Human Wizard in our current campaign. At the beginning of each day, I analyse all the data we have on the upcoming battle, and I ask my allies which spells they think will mesh best with their tactics.
My choice at character creation of implement also adds to my versatility. In our party of 4, I am often left to either duel sub-bosses or handle creeps on my own while the other members of the party deal with more pressing issues. My CON score is actually the highest in our group, and my Staff of Defence feature is ideal for theway I play my character. But other Wizards can go with other implements to improve their set of powers.

One Final Example: Since I get 3 choices (expanded spellbook) every level, at level 9, I am casting (if i choose) 3 level 9 spells a day (daily spell allottment entirely taken up by more powerful spells). This makes my assortment of powers much more powerful that my allies' at higher levels.

[Decoy Lockbox]

One Final Example: Since I get 3 choices (expanded spellbook) every level, at level 9, I am casting (if i choose) 3 level 9 spells a day (daily spell allottment entirely taken up by more powerful spells). This makes my assortment of powers much more powerful that my allies' at higher levels.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way -- yes, you know 3 level 9 daily attack spells, but you can only prepare one of them. I don't have my PHB with my at the moment, but I'm guessing some other people can back me up with a rules citation.

Now, on the other hand, if it does work this way, our party wizard is going to be very happy when I call him and tell him.

[Zocelot]

One Final Example: Since I get 3 choices (expanded spellbook) every level, at level 9, I am casting (if i choose) 3 level 9 spells a day (daily spell allottment entirely taken up by more powerful spells). This makes my assortment of powers much more powerful that my allies' at higher levels.

As far as I can tell, it doesn't forbid it, although I wouldn't let it into my games, as it goes against the spirit of the rules, just not the word.

-You can't prepare a spell twice.

-When you get to a level where you gain powers, normally you learn one of that level or lower, but the Wizard can learn 3.

-You can't retrain for a higher level power, so that normally, you'd have level 1,5 and 9 dailys at level 9. However, it doesn't say you need those level of powers.

I think there is a chart in the DMG though, that shows the level of powers per character level. If there is, then you can't learn 3 powers of the highest level.

[JaxGaret]

While I agree with you, Yakk, that it is very interesting to speculate on this matter, in the end it's only going to be an exercise in frustration, for we have no other Controller to compare the Wizard to.

I'd like to see what the 2nd Controller looks like, and if they are going to provide a common controller feature.

We need only exercise patience, we will see another Controller soon enough :)

[Zocelot]

Yes, there is a table in the DMG.

Class level 9, Encounter powers 7,3,1, Daily Powers 9,5,1, Utility Powers 6,2

It's in table form, but this is exactly the information it gives

After an extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily and utility speels according to what you can cast per day for your level

In the case of a level 9 wizard, this is one level 9, one level 5 and one level 1.

[RebelRogue]

It certainly does not work that way!

And in general, what defines a controller seems to be the abundance of AoE and status effect powers.

[Beleriphon]

In the case of a level 9 wizard, this is one level 9, one level 5 and one level 1.

And all expanded spell book do is know extra spells of those levels.

[Helgraf]

One Final Example: Since I get 3 choices (expanded spellbook) every level, at level 9, I am casting (if i choose) 3 level 9 spells a day (daily spell allottment entirely taken up by more powerful spells). This makes my assortment of powers much more powerful that my allies' at higher levels.

Except yer doing it wrong. You have to take a daily at each level that is available when you prepare your spells - you don't just get "3 daily slots, you pick what level you jam into them", just like the Level 9 Fighter can't choose to make his three dailys all his Level 9 Daily power.

To wit, as a 9th level wizard, at each spell prep period, you pick
1 Level 1 Daily (of two choices, three with ES)
1 Level 2 Utility (of two choices)
1 Level 5 Daily (of two choices, three with ES)
1 Level 6 Utility (of two choices)
1 Level 9 Daily (of two choices, three with ES)

[Eldmor]

I feel a Controller's job is to say No.

No, you're not going to flank us that way.
No, the minions aren't going to gang-band the Defender.
No, you're going to stand right there and twiddle your thumbs.
No, I'll kill you with my minor actions while I nuke the big baddy.

[Colmarr]

You don't really need to have an "across-the-board" power to define a role. The controller's unique ability is how he can control the battlefield with his powers. His damage attacks are split between devistating status effect inducing powers and aoe damage over large groups of enemies. (At least for wizards.)

I agree. There's been a lot of discussion about the features of class roles, and they seem much more general than "I can add bonus damage once per encounter".

I suspect that the existing "common features" of defenders, strikers and leaders are common only because they represent low-risk, established and acceptable, and mathematically sound ways of doing whatever it is those roles are expected to do.

[trashcan01]

Well the only thing I see wizard being different from other classes is not rolling for attack which in 4e is like save or die for 3e but is only just die. In stinking cloud, wall of fire/ice is the whole controllish power but I just see it as kickass power more powerful than any other classes. Off course wizard isn`t nearly as powerful for soloing like in older versions of d&d but with forced push powers from your mates (blood pulse anyone?) your going to make any encounter a walk in the woods.

[RebelRogue]

Well the only thing I see wizard being different from other classes is not rolling for attack

??? Wizards roll attacks for their powers just like everybody else in 4th!

[trashcan01]

??? Wizards roll attacks for their powers just like everybody else in 4th!

How do you role attack role for wall of fire/ice?

[RebelRogue]

How do you role attack role for wall of fire/ice?

Ah, clever!

[Starsinger]

How do you role attack role for wall of fire/ice?

Not to mention powers that say things like "When a creature starts in the zone they take X damage."

[RebelRogue]

Not to mention powers that say things like "When a creature starts in the zone they take X damage."

Well, that's exactly what Wall of Fire/Ice does...