[4e] New books - let's find the bad stuff

[Tengu_temp]

Since a lot of new crunch has been released recently, let's find:
1. Exploits - stuff that's gamebreaking and too good for its level, or just too good overall.
2. Crap - the opposite. What powers, feats, paragon paths, items are too weak and nobody sane would ever want to take them?
3. Power creep - does some of the new stuff make the old one seem redundant and too weak in comparison? Or did 4e avoid this fate... for now?

Notes:
Let's find new examples, those from FRPG and AV. Everyone and their dog knows the Orcus Slayer now (which got fixed by the errata, of course).
If your only contribution to this thread would be trying to turn it into an edition war, I'd like to kindly ask you to **** off. I'll keep troll repellent in reach, just in case.

[Starbuck_II]

Since a lot of new crunch has been released recently, let's find:
1. Exploits - stuff that's gamebreaking and too good for its level, or just too good overall.
2. Crap - the opposite. What powers, feats, paragon paths, items are too weak and nobody sane would ever want to take them?
3. Power creep - does some of the new stuff make the old one seem redundant and too weak in comparison? Or did 4e avoid this fate... for now?

Notes:
Let's find new examples, those from FRPG and AV. Everyone and their dog knows the Orcus Slayer now (which got fixed by the errata, of course).
If your only contribution to this thread would be trying to turn it into an edition war, I'd like to kindly ask you to **** off. I'll keep troll repellent in reach, just in case.

In Adventurer's Vault:
I hear there is a new dagger , Parrying Dagger, with Brutal 1 quality (counts as a dagger so gets Rogues +1 hit), and +1 AC, but I think Proficiency +2.

Basically, you trade +1 hit for AC and Brutal 1 (reroll 1's).

[Starsinger]

In Adventurer's Vault:
I hear there is a new dagger , Parrying Dagger, with Brutal 1 quality (counts as a dagger so gets Rogues +1 hit), and +1 AC, but I think Proficiency +2.

Basically, you trade +1 hit for AC and Brutal 1 (reroll 1's).

Ahh. You're so close, but wrong. Parrying Dagger is a Defensive weapon (which is the only one handed defensive weapon, all the others are double weapons)

Defensive weapons give you +1 AC if you wield a defensive weapon in one hand, and another melee weapon in the other. However, dual-wielding Defensive weapons doesn't give you extra bonus.

[Yakk]

Doesn't that make Dagger + Parrying Dagger two weapon stance a no-brainer for Rogues?

Brutal 1 [d4] = (2+3+4)/3 = average of 3 damage per [W]. Actually hitting with it isn't worth it.

Do brutal 1 weapons add the 1 to the reroll, or just use the reroll?

[Tengu_temp]

You need to be proficient in a defensive weapon to gain its AC bonus. Parrying daggers are practically shields for characters with low strength.

[The Mormegil]

Force Weapon + Solid Sound = free +2 to all defenses by switching it on and off three times per turn. Broken, as is.

Orb of Ultimate Imposition makes Orbizard able to one-shot solos and elites as easily as normal monsters (30 Wis +6 OoUI = -16 to save...)

MindIron bow + Psychic Lock. Nuff said.

Radiant Weapons. Undead beware!

Paired Weapons for TWFing people who don't want to use a double weapon.

Mage's Weapon and Bracers (?) of Arcane Might for gishes.

Corellon's Holy Symbol that works with arcane powers (holy symbols do not waste hands!) again for gishes.

[Grynning]

Paired Weapons for TWFing people who don't want to use a double weapon.

That enhancement is fairly worthless, IMO. All it does it let you split your weapon into a pair. Since you can't stack special abilities on weapons in 4e, that means that you will have a pair of weapons with no other powers. Cheaper, yes, more effective, no. Two individual weapons with different enchantments will still be the way to go for optimizing.

There is another enchant in the book that basically gives you extra attacks when dual wielding, that one is pretty potent. At work and AFB so I can't recall the name.

[ColdSepp]

Doesn't that make Dagger + Parrying Dagger two weapon stance a no-brainer for Rogues?

Brutal 1 [d4] = (2+3+4)/3 = average of 3 damage per [W]. Actually hitting with it isn't worth it.

Do brutal 1 weapons add the 1 to the reroll, or just use the reroll?

It just adds the reroll. Anytime your roll 1, you roll again, as if it was your first roll.

[Zeful]

That enhancement is fairly worthless, IMO. All it does it let you split your weapon into a pair. Since you can't stack special abilities on weapons in 4e, that means that you will have a pair of weapons with no other powers. Cheaper, yes, more effective, no. Two individual weapons with different enchantments will still be the way to go for optimizing.

There is another enchant in the book that basically gives you extra attacks when dual wielding, that one is pretty potent. At work and AFB so I can't recall the name.

Paired Daggers, kick ass investment. Whip out one blade and suddenly have two. Great imagry.

[Mercenary Pen]

I'm wondering whether the parrying dagger is intended as something to boost the AC of stuff like the 'Tempest Fighter' build due to arrive with the martial power splatbook? (there is a preview for this class on the official d&d website, but I haven't got the link at the moment)...

[Grynning]

Link: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080905

Doesn't look like they'll really need a defensive weapon, those class features are awesome. Much better than a two-blade ranger IMO.

Back to the Paired Enchantment: Yes, the imagery is cool. I'm just saying that you wouldn't want to use that as your primary weapon because you would lose out on a real weapon power. I would probably house rule that a paired weapon can have another power as well.

[ColdSepp]

Link: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080905


Back to the Paired Enchantment: Yes, the imagery is cool. I'm just saying that you wouldn't want to use that as your primary weapon because you would lose out on a real weapon power. I would probably house rule that a paired weapon can have another power as well.

Yeah. It sounds neat on paper, but without stacking enchantments, it's rather useless, save for the imagery.

[quillbreaker]

Let the power creep begin!

It takes a party ten in-level (+0) encounters to gain a level by literal interpretation of the book. Time was, my players were challenged by a +0 encounter - now they blow through them. After a couple splat books get tossed in the mix, will they blow through +1 encounters?

If you can ever get to the point where you can trivialize a +4 encounter, you can double your rate of advancement. Anyone want to guess when that will be?

note : the bold +4 used to be +5 - i misspoke in my original statement.

What examples make you think that? Mind posting them here?

Here I am! I ran these numbers when I was trying to figure out how fast a party would advance.

A first level character needs 1000xp to advance.

A +0 encounter for him will be worth 100xp. A level 1 encounter will be 300 xp for 3 people, 400 xp for 4 people, and 500 xp for 5 people. Thus, 100 xp a person.

If you bump the encounter up to +4, it's a 5th level encounter. (Did I say +5 originally? Oops.) A 5th level encounter is 600 xp for 3 people, 800 xp for 4 people, and 1000 xp for 5 people. Thus, 200 xp a person.

So a level 1 character that beats 10 level 1 encounters will level in 10 encounters. A level 1 character that beats 5 level 5 encounters will level in 5 encounters.

This math seems to hold for all the levels I checked for. A level 7 character needs 3000 xp to advance to 8th level. Guess how much a level 7 encounter is worth? 300 xp. Guess how much a level 11 encounter is worth per pc? 600 xp.

They may have fudged it at the high end, given that it finishes at level 30 at a cool even 1,000,000 xp. I didn't test for all the levels, but it wouldn't be hard to do. I didn't test because I had the answer I wanted (near future, heroic tier games). Ten encounters gets you a level, but +4 encounters count for double.

Someone with a fondness for equations could probably reduce the experience chart to a formula based off these results.

Given how they encourage you to lay out an encounter (pick a specific amount of xp, spend the xp on encounter features, you are done), I think it's very relevant to consider the rate of power creep affecting the rate of character advancement. The higher an encounter modifier you can beat trivially, the faster you will advance. Mere system knowledge has caused my group to start slaughtering +0 encounters. If they learn how to make broken multiclass combinations, will that bump them to trivializing +1? If they get some broken splatbook gear, will that bump them to trivializing +2?

A fast leveling group in 3.5 might worry about missing their WBL guidelines, but that's not even true in 4th - as you are supposed to distribute the whole of the treasure parcel for level 1 while they are level 1, no matter how short level 1 turns out to be.

I don't really want to find myself in the 3.5 mileu, where character creation is a tedious ordeal of negotiation where you tell people no to various broken things for an hour (and no to custom relics 5 or 6 times), but it may well be that we are on our way there early. I suppose the fact that I hoped for better from 4.0 proves I am an optimist.

[Tengu_temp]

Well, while this theory looks correct, the thing I asked for are examples of power creep from the new books. Things that make you think power creep is indeed happening in 4e.

[Shadow_Elf]

Well, while this theory looks correct, the thing I asked for are examples of power creep from the new books. Things that make you think power creep is indeed happening in 4e.

It may not make a big difference, but the normalization of class progression has gone a long way towards preventing power creep and balancing things, IMHO.
Everyone gets the same number of "spell" slots at the same levels, and each set of powers are roughly balanced, depending on situations. I didn't play much 3.5, so correct me if I'm wrong, but martial characters didn't get powers or exploits before. This made it much harder to balance them versus Arcane or Divine. And don't get me started on the needless complexity of 3.5e Psionics... In other words, while power creep may take place, it will probably be through gear or messed up feats, which are harder to compare and regulate than other aspects of characters.
And multiclassing sucks this time 'round. So multiclass combos are going to be a rare occurence IMHO.

[thegurullamen]

I dunno about that. This is WotC we're discussing. I believe future power imbalances will be the result of retooled mechanics: different power mechanics, different power sources, items and feats as you pointed out, alternate systems ala ToM and ToB for 3.5. The possibilities go on and on and if there's a market for new things, WotC will move in that direction (though it may take a while; 4e is plenty ripe for great ideas as it stands. But when those start thinning out, look for absurdities like that snake-thing splatbook that led to PunPun.)

[EvilElitest]

I dunno about that. This is WotC we're discussing. I believe future power imbalances will be the result of retooled mechanics: different power mechanics, different power sources, items and feats as you pointed out, alternate systems ala ToM and ToB for 3.5. The possibilities go on and on and if there's a market for new things, WotC will move in that direction (though it may take a while; 4e is plenty ripe for great ideas as it stands. But when those start thinning out, look for absurdities like that snake-thing splatbook that led to PunPun.)

WotC only needs to maintain balence until they get a large customer basis, once they already have a hooked audience, they don't really need to make the effort anymore. and its 3E all over again
from
EE

[RTGoodman]

I dunno about that. This is WotC we're discussing. I believe future power imbalances will be the result of retooled mechanics: different power mechanics, different power sources, items and feats as you pointed out, alternate systems ala ToM and ToB for 3.5. The possibilities go on and on and if there's a market for new things, WotC will move in that direction (though it may take a while; 4e is plenty ripe for great ideas as it stands. But when those start thinning out, look for absurdities like that snake-thing splatbook that led to PunPun.)

I don't think they have ANY desire or plan to to try to come up with alternate systems for new classes or power sources - if everything ones on a single unified mechanic and balance is maintained that way, I don't see why they'd change it.

If there's any big power creep, I don't think it'll be in classes or powers; I think it'll be in items or Paragon Path/Epic Destiny stuff. Feats are too weak to be that big of a deal, and powers SHOULD (if they're smart) never be a problem since they should be compared to other powers of the same type and the same level.

[thegurullamen]

@EE: Can't refute that because I don't think I know how. Sounds logical but not sound.

@rtg: Yes, everything runs on a unified mechanic, but it's an overall mechanic that can have tons of things done to it while technically preserving it. The proof lies in the different roles: strikers, leaders and controllers all have mutually different ways to effect enemies despite sharing the same core mechanic. As time goes by, more ways to effect enemies will be introduced, probably to the detriment of the core classes.

As for feats, I think 4e will follow the same path as 3.5. Look at the feats in the 3.x PHB. Pretty weak for the most part, aren't they? Fast forward and suddenly feats are fill-in class features.

[Starbuck_II]

WotC only needs to maintain balence until they get a large customer basis, once they already have a hooked audience, they don't really need to make the effort anymore. and its 3E all over again
from
EE

But 3E started out without balance so they at least delivered their promise for 4th edition: Core three was balanced. While Core All might not be depending on future.

[Zocelot]

Feats are too weak to be that big of a deal

In Core alone, there are a few feats that are no-brainers (Usually Class or Race Specific). Once enough splatbooks are out, people will be able to only take those really powerful feats.

[AKA_Bait]

In Core alone, there are a few feats that are no-brainers (Usually Class or Race Specific). Once enough splatbooks are out, people will be able to only take those really powerful feats.

If, what you mean is that people will only be able to take those really powerful feats if they are optimizing their character to maximum possible power, then I agree with you but trivially so. Even now, if anyone cared enough to work it out, there are probably optimal builds for each type of thing you want to be. So, of course, as more books come out it will remain true although the components of the 'strongest possible x build' may change.

Fortunatley, not everyone plays in games where they want to play 'the strongest possible x build' so I don't see it as a problem. One of the good things, at least thus far, about 4e is that the strongest possble x build doesn't make the strongest possibly y build nigh usless as was true in 3.x pretty much right out of core.

[Zocelot]

If, what you mean is that people will only be able to take those really powerful feats if they are optimizing their character to maximum possible power, then I agree with you but trivially so. Even now, if anyone cared enough to work it out, there are probably optimal builds for each type of thing you want to be. So, of course, as more books come out it will remain true although the components of the 'strongest possible x build' may change.

Fortunatley, not everyone plays in games where they want to play 'the strongest possible x build' so I don't see it as a problem. One of the good things, at least thus far, about 4e is that the strongest possble x build doesn't make the strongest possibly y build nigh usless as was true in 3.x pretty much right out of core.

While this is completely true, we are on the topic of power creep. That means we operate on the assumption that players are trying to optimize their characters.

[Shadowtraveler]

The Spellscarred power Gravity of Moment is horribly broken. You slide the target 15 squares on a hit, and can move them 10 more at a time with Sustain Minor.

Now, if you divide it by 5 so it's 3 squares on a hit, it's better, but still...

[RTGoodman]

In Core alone, there are a few feats that are no-brainers (Usually Class or Race Specific). Once enough splatbooks are out, people will be able to only take those really powerful feats.

Yeah, but there's "so good everyone who qualifies takes them" and then there's "so good it destroys game balance." Sure, you'd probably be an idiot not to take the Human racial feat that ups your defenses (if you're a human), but I REALLY don't think we'll see a feat that, for instance, lets you double your number of daily powers or whatever. They might get more powerful, but I don't think we'll see truly broken feats (though, knowing some of the stuff WotC HAS printed, I could be wrong in the long-run).

Shadowtraveler: That's from the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, right? If I see that anywhere I'll take a look, but to me that looks like prime errata material there. The only thing similar I can think of is a Fighter power (I think) that moves the target X squares and then lets your move them 1 square per turn. (Of course, everyone expects FR to be horribly overpowered anyway, so no big deal, right? )

[Shadowtraveler]

Shadowtraveler: That's from the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, right? If I see that anywhere I'll take a look, but to me that looks like prime errata material there. The only thing similar I can think of is a Fighter power (I think) that moves the target X squares and then lets your move them 1 square per turn. (Of course, everyone expects FR to be horribly overpowered anyway, so no big deal, right? )

It's 15 squares though. And it's sustainable. You can basically keep it going all day if you feel like, and then toss the guy off a cliff when you're bored.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

I don't know, a discussion on 4e's power creep, in the bad light we're looking at it in, seems to belong in the "things you dislike about 4e" thread. But I may be wrong, it may be a more specific look at something that isn't really a problem yet. So I'll leave you to it.

Anyhow, I'm not really noticing a power creep so much as a vast amount of redundency. My DM purchased the Players Armoury or whatever it's called and they released the "broadsword".
Now, that's the one thing that caught my eye. I had been thinking on it a while. Guess what makes it different that the Bastard Sword? +1 profficiency and if I rememebr correctly Brutal 1.........In my opinion it's not much of a difference to warrant adding into a new book.
You get 1 less to your attack bonus but if wielded two handedly the minimum damage a Strength 10 character can do is 3, as you reroll on a 1.
So, it's a bastard sword that at most deals 12, rather than 11, AND it's military....Did they really need to put it in a new book.

In short, Power Creep? No. Don't see it. Redundency that is making me wonder if PHB2 will be worth it, definitely.

[tbarrie]

Doesn't that make Dagger + Parrying Dagger two weapon stance a no-brainer for Rogues?

Brutal 1 [d4] = (2+3+4)/3 = average of 3 damage per [W]. Actually hitting with it isn't worth it.

Parrying daggers aren't Brutal, so even less so.

You need to be proficient in a defensive weapon to gain its AC bonus. Parrying daggers are practically shields for characters with low strength.

<nod> Low strength, or just because you like the flavour better than Light Shield Proficiency, which I expect will be fairly common for Rogues.

(They're superiour weapons; I don't think that's been explicitly mentioned yet.)

[Arbitrarity]

The Spellscarred power Gravity of Moment is horribly broken. You slide the target 15 squares on a hit, and can move them 10 more at a time with Sustain Minor.

Now, if you divide it by 5 so it's 3 squares on a hit, it's better, but still...

Lol, I detect a typo.

[Gralamin]

It's 15 squares though. And it's sustainable. You can basically keep it going all day if you feel like, and then toss the guy off a cliff when you're bored.

It doesn't do any damage though, and is a level 19 Daily, so ignoring Veterans armor, and say reducing the sliding by 5, it'd probably be about balanced.