Rogue/Swashbuckler advice needed

[weenie]

I'll be playing a Rogue/Swashbuckler in a 3.5 campaign staring at ECL 9 and going to ECL 12 sometime soon, and was wondering how to make my build a bit more optimized.

What I have so far is Human Rogue 4 /Swashbuckler 5 with TWF, Daring Outlaw and Able Learner. For the remaining two feats I was thinking about picking up Deadly Defense and Two Weapon Defense, but I'm not sure if they're worth it. +1d6 to damage is nice, but taking a -4 penalty to attack seems a lot when added to the -2 of TWF.

Books allowed are core and the complete series.

[Eldariel]

You're correct, they're not worth it. Two-Weapon Defense gives you Shield-bonus - it's usually much cheaper to just get an Animated Shield instead (9000gp vs. a feat). And Deadly Defense is awesome if you do have Combat Expertise/Elaborate Parry and ways to boost his attacks (so you actually hit when fighting defensively). Otherwise, it sucks royally. Eh, the obvious feat is Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 9 (unless you get it as a part of Two-Weapon Fighting which would kick ass). You'll want to consider slight Barbarian-dip (4+Int skills too) for Pounce (Complete Champion) - TWF is in trouble if you can't full attack. Second level would get you Uncanny Dodge which wouldn't hurt either. If you do want better shield-bonus to AC, pick up Improved Buckler Defense, get a Buckler and enchant the heck out of it.

Do you have any chance of accessing Tome of Battle? It would really make this work out: slight dip for Ironheart Aura>Stormguard Warrior would give you an awesome tool and a small Swordsage-dip for Assassin's Stance, couple of handy maneuvers and qualifications for Shadow Blade (!!) would be awesome - derive your attacks and damage off Dex (and Int, obviously)! Tome of Battle really makes TWF work out.

[playswithfire]

I realize what I'm about to suggest is not from core or completes and thus probably can't help you, but here it is anyway.

I'm with Eldarial; a swordsage dip would really be helpful

Rogue 4/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage +1
stay in assassin's stance constantly and take Shadow blade and you'll have 6d6 sneak attack + DEX and INT to damage (with shadow hand weapons, so daggers and unarmed strikes probably) and there's a feat called Carmendine Monk that makes monk abilities (like AC bonus) run off of INT instead of WIS, so that'd be great; it's a bit of a stretch, but I think most DMs would allow it to work for swordsage AC

Sorry this is less that helpful, but I've worked on a few builds like this and that's always how I start.

[Starbuck_II]

I'll be playing a Rogue/Swashbuckler in a 3.5 campaign staring at ECL 9 and going to ECL 12 sometime soon, and was wondering how to make my build a bit more optimized.

What I have so far is Human Rogue 4 /Swashbuckler 5 with TWF, Daring Outlaw and Able Learner. For the remaining two feats I was thinking about picking up Deadly Defense and Two Weapon Defense, but I'm not sure if they're worth it. +1d6 to damage is nice, but taking a -4 penalty to attack seems a lot when added to the -2 of TWF.

Books allowed are core and the complete series.

Do you have Complete Scoundrel skill tricks yet? They can add alot of oomph to your guy I think.

I do think TWD sucks. Why Deadly Defense? I mean, do fight defensively alot?

I kinda liked Victor's luck (reroll Crit confirm) but then I like to make sure I never fail my Confirming.

For Skill tricks:
Acrobatic Backstab, Hidden Blade (depending on character), and Spot the Weak point.

[Darrin]

I'll be playing a Rogue/Swashbuckler in a 3.5 campaign staring at ECL 9 and going to ECL 12 sometime soon, and was wondering how to make my build a bit more optimized.

What I have so far is Human Rogue 4 /Swashbuckler 5 with TWF, Daring Outlaw and Able Learner. For the remaining two feats I was thinking about picking up Deadly Defense and Two Weapon Defense, but I'm not sure if they're worth it. +1d6 to damage is nice, but taking a -4 penalty to attack seems a lot when added to the -2 of TWF.

Books allowed are core and the complete series.

Pick up Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer) ASAP, which would be ECL 9 for a Rogue/Swashbuckler.

As many have already mentioned, avoid Two Weapon Defense and Deadly Defense. Here's a list of sneak attack feats:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915

The two concerns I'd be worried about for a TWF Daring Outlaw are 1) creating more situations where you can use sneak attack, and 2) dealing with creatures that are immune to precision damage (constructs, oozes, undead).

A lot of good solutions to #1 are in Tome of Battle, but you didn't mention that as one of the books allowed. A dip into SwordSage gets you the Island of Blades stance, which allows you and an ally to flank from any position so long as you're both adjacent to the target. You can also pick up this stance with Martial Study + Martial Stance feats. Clarion Commander would be another way to get 10 rounds of free flanking (standard action, works at any range), but requires another feat that would be useless to you. Or if you can afford it, there's always a ring of blinking (27000 gp) for sneak-attack-on-command. Otherwise, convince another player to play a ranger and have him take the Distracting Strike Alternative Class Feature, or pick up a cohort that can do that via Leadership.

For problem #2, you can use the Penetrating Strike Alternatative Class Feature in Dungeonscape (Rogue 3rd, replaces Trap Sense) to get half damage when flanking creatures normally immune to precision damage. Another option would be Dragontouched + Dragonfire Strike, which converts your sneak attack damage into energy damage. The default is fire, but you can spend another feat on Draconic Heritage to switch it to another energy type like sonic or force.

[Person_Man]

I suggest Staggering Strike, Craven, and/or Dragonfire Strike if your DM allows the energy conversion to occur after you hit but before damage is applied, which would allow Sneak Attack to damage undead/contructs/etc. If he doesn't, its useless.

Another alternative is to pick up a reach weapon, armor spikes, and Mage Slayer, Blind Fight (pre-req), and Pierce Magical Concealment (Comp Arcane). Then buy a Ring of Blinking. Just before combat starts or during the Surprise Round activate it (standard action). Your enemies now have a 50% miss chance, shoring up your weak AC. You strike as an Invisible creature, which means you get +2 to hit and deny enemies their Dex bonus, giving you Sneak Attack on every hit. And Pierce Magical concealment lets you ignore the miss chance from all magical effects, so you don't have to worry about your 20% miss chance from blinking, or from any other magical miss chance enemies might have (darkness, blur, invisibility, etc). And as an added benefit, Mage Slayer denies casters the ability to cast defensively, allowing you to trap them and ruin any spells if you can get adjacent to them.

Also, pick up a Wand of Flame Blade or something similar. You never know when you're going to need touch attacks. (FYI, only use it during BBEG fights. Otherwise DMs will start throwing ridiculous enemies at you).

[Darrin]

I suggest Staggering Strike, Craven, and/or Dragonfire Strike if your DM allows the energy conversion to occur after you hit but before damage is applied, which would allow Sneak Attack to damage undead/contructs/etc. If he doesn't, its useless.

How else would a DM interpret a feat with a description that includes, "Make this choice for each attack after it is resolved but before damage is dealt"?

[Lys]

In the PH II, there's a feat called Telling blow. Whenever you score a critical hit, you deal your sneak attack damage.

I really like this feat with my +1 Keen Rapier ^^

[TempusCCK]

There are some very very effective builds to be made using Fighting Defensively as a starting point. Most of them center around combat reflexes/combat expertise.

Agile Riposte- somewhat limited and is in Dragon Magazine, but excellent. Free attack of opportunity when the opponent misses you. Excellent!

Defensive Throw- Heavy prereqs, but also very very useful, might be a little too prereq heavy for your build though. Free trip when the opponent misses? Yes sir!

I remember I had a whole build worked out for it, but the specifics elude me, that's just a small number of those things... Man I need to play that character....

[mangosta71]

I actually prefer the gray elf race for swashbucklers. The int bonus makes up the extra skill point humans get and offsets the str penalty on your damage rolls, and higher dex for pretty much everything your character will do. Plus you can use an elven thinblade + lightblade combo.

If you tweak your classes to 3 rogue/6 swashbuckler, you also qualify for improved critical right off the bat.

[Keld Denar]

In the PH II, there's a feat called Telling blow. Whenever you score a critical hit, you deal your sneak attack damage.

I really like this feat with my +1 Keen Rapier ^^

Telling Blow kind of is...not so good. Its rather unreliable, even with a 25% crit chance or so. Its much better to always get SA via one of the above mentioned methods (Island of Blades/Ring of Blinking) or position yourself in SA situation than it is to rely on a 25% chance to do 90% of your damage. Since Telling Blow does nothing when you crit in a situation where you are already allowed to apply your SA dice, if you are doing your job right, you'll almost never need it. A very very rare situational benefit is a poor reason to choose a feat. There is much better out there to pick from.

[Curmudgeon]

Telling Blow kind of is...not so good. Its rather unreliable, even with a 25% crit chance or so. ... Since Telling Blow does nothing when you crit in a situation where you are already allowed to apply your SA dice, if you are doing your job right, you'll almost never need it.

You've forgotten the cases where you couldn't otherwise qualify for sneak attack damage.

Benefit: When you score a critical hit against a target, you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage in addition to the damage from your critical hit.

You can add sneak/skirmish damage with critical hits in the following cases:

• when you're more than 30' away
• when the target has concealment
• when you haven't moved 10'

I don't know how you can reasonably keep the enemy from taking advantage of concealment even "if you are doing your job right". Or guarantee you'll be within 30' at the beginning of every encounter. Rogues have enough skill points to maximize Spot, and commonly win initiative, so you should be able to attack the enemy when they're flat-footed during the surprise round, and for a full attack immediately thereafter. If you're more than 30' away, or only make melee attacks, you squander most of your advantage because you get no sneak attack damage then. Telling Blow and a missile weapon with a good threat range (like a keen quick loading great crossbow) can give you a big boost at the start of every encounter.

[Keld Denar]

You've forgotten the cases where you couldn't otherwise qualify for sneak attack damage. You can add sneak/skirmish damage with critical hits in the following cases:

• when you're more than 30' away
• when the target has concealment
• when you haven't moved 10'

I don't know how you can reasonably keep the enemy from taking advantage of concealment even "if you are doing your job right".

A Wand of Glitterdust is relatively cheap to afford by the time you start regularly encounting things with concealment, otherwise, you do have a party to help out with this issue. There are also some Magic Items in MIC that grant temporary True Sight when required. Not worth a feat.

Or guarantee you'll be within 30' at the beginning of every encounter. Rogues have enough skill points to maximize Spot, and commonly win initiative, so you should be able to attack the enemy when they're flat-footed during the surprise round, and for a full attack immediately thereafter. If you're more than 30' away, or only make melee attacks, you squander most of your advantage because you get no sneak attack damage then. Telling Blow and a missile weapon with a good threat range (like a keen quick loading great crossbow) can give you a big boost at the start of every encounter.

Huge investment in resources that don't fullfil your primary niche, perferating kidneys. That weapon is at least 18,000 gold and requires EWP: Great Crossbow, another feat investment for circumstancial return. You'd be better off spending the surprise round using your Ring of Blinking, or using a Wand or Greater Invis or something, rather than gambling on a couple of dice of extra damage and wasting a round of full attack drawing your melee weapons after dropping your 18,000 xbow on the ground (unless you want to spend YET ANOTHER feat on Quickdraw)...

[Curmudgeon]

A Wand of Glitterdust is relatively cheap to afford by the time you start regularly encounting things with concealment

Huh? Glitterdust outlines invisible things. If there's concealment, such as from a Darkness spell, Glitterdust doesn't change that: invisible creatures are outlined -- but the concealment still persists, and you still can't sneak attack.