Game HP Damage Translated into Narration (3.5 or 4.0)

[DM Raven]

So I was reading a thread where people were arguing about how HP, temporary HP, and damage should be translated into a story. I had a few suggestions that some DMs might find useful to making a battle scene more believable.

When a character or enemy is taking damage, I assume that character or enemy is using endurance to avoid direct hits from enemy attacks. Actions live dodging backwards, rolling sideways, blocking a swing, ducking a swipe, or "almost being knocked prone by the force of your enemy's attack" are often used when I describe hits above bloodied value.

When a target goes below bloodied, hits start to become glancing blows, stabs in the shoulder, small lacerations, "blood drips from the enemy's mouth," bleeding from several woulds tell you your foe can't last much longer," and "you can tell that your foe is starting to become winded as he can no longer avoid your attacks with the same speed and strengh he once possessed."

When a target drops below zero, then and only then does the deathblow land. "Your attack lands true piercing his chest." "He skull collapses under the force of your club." "The head of your opponent lies on the ground next to you, a look of surprise and horror permenantly etched in his face." ect, ect....

I find that this paints a much more believable story than, "You stab him in the chest again." I don't care how heroic you are, getting stabbed in the chest with a large piece of metal will slow you down and probably kill you unless you get immediate magic attention.

You can do this with 3.5 as well, just use the target's half HP value for when blows start glancing. Oh, and I dont suggest describing deathblows when your players die...it's mean and they get the idea that you are enjoying yourself. Which is only partially true... >=p

[Matthew]

Hey! Describing deathblows is a sacred duty.

[Spiryt]

Well, I do this every time, RPG is a thing of description to me.Making everything more logical and imaginable is fun.

Personally I don't think that any "halves" are necessary, I just follow with the situation.

If a strike deals many damage, it can be described as some pretty serious wound even at the very start.

Hey! Describing deathblows is a sacred duty.

Certainly! If you're going down, you want at least poem about it, damn it !

[Lycan 01]

When people get hurt in my Call of Cthulhu games, I compare the damage to their HP. The more damage, the worse the injury. If somebody gets shot for 3 damage, its a flesh wound in the arm. If they get shot for 11 damage, leaving them with only one, I say they took a bullet in the chest, and that they are rapidly bleeding out. (A First Aid roll is also required in that situation so they don't bleed to death in 1d3 turns. Yes, I'm evil... )

A few examples...

A guy with 12 HP got thrown out a window for 11 damage. I ruled that he landed on his face - hard, and came to rest in a jumbled mess. The impact had broken his nose (minus 1 Appearance point!), his ribs were bruised and/or cracked, his left knee was dislocated, and he was knocked unconscious. Another PC carried him to safety, and he spent a week in the hospital recovering the ability to walk...

One guy took two 20-gauge shells to the stomach at point blank for about 30 damage... he had 8 HP... I said he got blown in half.

And last week a guy with 4 HP left (he'd almost drowned to death) was hit with 25 damage when a stalagtite fell on him. See my "Epic PC Deaths" thread for those results...

[Matthew]

Well, I do this every time, RPG is a thing of description to me. Making everything more logical and imaginable is fun.

I agree.

Personally I don't think that any "halves" are necessary, I just follow with the situation.

I also agree.

If a strike deals many damage, it can be described as some pretty serious wound even at the very start.

Indeed.

Here are some relevant bits and pieces...

AD&D 1e Player's Handbook, p. 34.

Character Hit Points

Each character has a varying number of hit points,' just as monsters do. These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take about 5 hit points of damage before being Killed. Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This IS the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic flghter can take that much punishment. The some holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit paints aresymbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.

AD&D 1e Dungeon Master's Guide, pp. 61, 82, and 111-12.

Combat

Damage scored to characters or certain monsters is actually not substantially physical - a mere nick or scratch until the last handful of hit points are considered - it is of matter of wearing away the endurance, the luck, the magical protections. With respect to most monsters such damage is, in fact, more physically substantial although as with adjustments in armor class rating for speed and agility, there are also similar additions in hit points.

As has been detailed, hit points are not actually a measure of physical damage, by and large, as far as characters (and some other creatures as well) are concerned. Therefore, the location of hits and the type of damage caused are not germane to them. While this is not true with respect to most monsters, it is neither necessary nor particularly useful.

Hit Points

It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).

*Obligatory Rasputin Example*

Consider a character who is a 10th level fighter with an 18 constitution. This character would have an average of 5½ hit points per die, plus a constitution bonus of 4 hit points, per level, or 95 hit points! Each hit scored upon the character does only a small amount of actual physical harm - the sword thrust that would have run a 1st level fighter through the heart merely grazes the character due to the fighter's exceptional skill, luck, and sixth sense ability which caused movement to avoid the attack at just the right moment. However, having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points.

Intervention By Deities

Otherwise, the accumulation of hit points and the ever-greater abilities and better saving throws of characters represents the aid supplied by supernatural forces.

AD&D 2e Player's Handbook/Dungeons Master's Guide

Injury and Death

Sometimes, no degree of luck, skill, ability, or resistance to various attacks can prevent harm from coming to a character. The adventuring life carries with it unavoidable risks. Sooner or later a character is going to be hurt.

To allow characters to be heroic (and for ease of play), damage is handled abstractly in the AD&D game. All characters and monsters have a number of hit points. The more hit points a creature has, the harder it is to defeat.

Damage is subtracted from a character's (or creature's) hit points. Should one of the player characters hit an ogre in the side of the head for 8 points of damage, those 8 points are subtracted from the ogre's total hit points.The damage isn't applied to the head, or divided among different areas of the body.

Hit Point loss is cumulative until a character dies or has a chance to heal his wounds.

Wounds

When a character hits a monster, or vice versa, damage is suffered by the victim. The amount of damage depends on the weapon or method of attack. In Table 44 of the Player's Handbook, all weapons are rated for the amount of damage they inflict to Small, Medium, and Large targets. This is given as a die range (1d8, 2d6, etc.).

Each time a hit is scored, the appropriate dice are rolled and the result--damage--is subtracted from the current hit points of the target. An orc that attacks with a sword, for example, causes damage according to the information given for the type of sword it uses. A troll that bites once and rends with one of its clawed hands causes 2d6 points of damage with its bite and 1d4 + 4 points with its claw. The DM gets this information from the Monstrous Manual.

Sometimes damage is listed as a die range along with a bonus of +1 or more. The troll's claw attack, above, is a good example. This bonus may be due to high Strength, magical weapons, or the sheer ferocity of the creature's attack. The bonus is added to whatever number comes up on the die roll, assuring that some minimum amount of damage is inflicted. Likewise, penalties also can be applied, but no successful attack can result in less than 1 point of damage.

Sometimes an attack has both a die roll and a damage multiplier. The number rolled on the dice is boosted by the multiplier to determine how much damage is inflicted. This occurs mainly in backstabbing attempts. In cases where damage is multiplied, only the base damage caused by the weapon is multiplied. Bonuses due to Strength or magic are not multiplied. Bonuses due to Strength or magic are not multiplied; they are added after the rolled damage is multiplied.

Specific Injuries (Optional Rule)

The AD&D combat system does not call for specific wounds--scars, broken bones, missing limbs, and the like. And in most cases they shouldn't be applied. Remember that this is a game of heroic fantasy. If characters were to suffer real-life effects from all their battles and combats, they would quickly be some of the sorriest and most depressing characters in the campaign world. It's hard to get excited when your character is recovering from a broken leg and a dislocated shoulder suffered in a fall off a 15-foot wall. It is not recommended that characters suffer specific injuries. In general, stick with the basic pool of hit points.

D20/3e Player's Handbook, p. .

Hit Points

Your hit points tell you how much punishment you can take before dropping. Your hit points are based on your class and level, and your Constitution modifier. applies Most monsters’ hit points are based on their type, though some monsters have classes and levels, too. (Watch out for medusa sorcerers!) When your hit point total reaches 0, you’re disabled. When it reaches –1, you’re dying. When it gets to –10, your problems are over—you’re dead (see Injury and Death, page 145).

Injury and Death

Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.

Loss of Hit Points

The most common way that your character gets hurt is to take lethal damage and lose hit points, whether from an orc’s falchion, a wizard’s lightning bolt spell, or a fall into molten lava. You record your character’s hit point total on your character sheet. As your character takes damage, you subtract that damage from your hit points, leaving you with your current hit points. Current hit points go down when you take damage and go back up when you recover.

What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. For some characters, hit points may represent divine favor or inner power. When a paladin survives a fireball, you will be hard pressed to convince bystanders that she doesn’t have the favor of some higher power.

Damaging Helpless Defenders: Even if you have lots of hit points, a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye. When a character is helpless, meaning that he can’t avoid damage or deflect blows somehow, he’s in trouble (see Helpless Defenders, page 153).

D20/4e Player's Handbook, p. 293.

Healing

Over the course of a battle, you take damage from attacks. Hit points (hp) measure your ability to stand up to punishment, turn deadly strikes into glancing blows, and stay on your feet throughout a battle. Hit points represent more than physical endurance. They represent your character’s skill, luck, and resolve—all the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a
combat situation.

When you create your character, you determine your maximum hit points. From this number, you derive your bloodied and healing surge values.

When you take damage, subtract that number from your current hit points. As long as your current hit point total is higher than 0, you can keep on fighting. When your current total drops to 0 or lower, however, you are dying.

Powers, abilities, and actions that restore hit points are known as healing. You might regain hit points through rest, heroic resolve, or magic. When you heal, add the number to your current hit points. You can heal up to your maximum hit point total, but you can’t exceed it.

[DM Raven]

Well, I do this every time, RPG is a thing of description to me.Making everything more logical and imaginable is fun.

Personally I don't think that any "halves" are necessary, I just follow with the situation. I

f a strike deals many damage, it can be described as some pretty serious wound even at the very start.

I agree, though for me...if an enemy sustains a serious would early on in the encounter it's more likely he would already be winded and bloodied and not be at peak...which would not be true since HP wise he would still be fine.

I feel like it gives my players more of a strategic element if they can judge an enemy's condition based on my descriptions. If you don't keep that sort of information reliable, then your players won't always have a decent picture of the status of their enemies.

[Spiryt]

I agree, though for me...if an enemy sustains a serious would early on in the encounter it's more likely he would already be winded and bloodied and not be at peak...which would not be true since HP wise he would still be fine.

I feel like it gives my players more of a strategic element if they can judge an enemy's condition based on my descriptions. If you don't keep that sort of information reliable, then your players won't always have a decent picture of the status of their enemies.

Just give them the description that even though fight had started very unfortunately to him, he's still obviously determined and ready to fight. His wound though means that he's obviously weakened, and your coming attacks would have greater and greater chance of being fatal.

Seriously, there are thousands of ways to describe way this strike dealed x damage, and why that dealed y.

Of course, I agree that coming up with reasonable ones. in the middle of fight can be quite tiring.

[Ascension]

I tend to describe hits as actual solid blows from the start of combat all the way through to the end. Yes, this can lead to characters sustaining ridiculous amounts of damage and not being hindered at all by, say, having a six inch long gash in their side, an arrow embedded in their neck, and third degree burns on their thigh. Is it realistic? Heck no. But I think it's cooler to have a character who's so insanely badass he can survive a spear being driven through his spleen than to abstract everything.

[Ravens_cry]

If you can narrate the battle well, you can influence the players role play, even if there is no mechanical side effects until 0 HP. For example, if you tell a player a blow just got past his shield, and into his guts, he just might start playing more defensively. With care, this can change how a battle progresses, even if the CR rating is the same or even lower.

[Matthew]

I tend to describe hits as actual solid blows from the start of combat all the way through to the end. Yes, this can lead to characters sustaining ridiculous amounts of damage and not being hindered at all by, say, having a six inch long gash in their side, an arrow embedded in their neck, and third degree burns on their thigh. Is it realistic? Heck no. But I think it's cooler to have a character who's so insanely badass he can survive a spear being driven through his spleen than to abstract everything.

A perfectly valid approach. Same question from the last thread out of interest. What do you do about temporary hit points?

Regdar has 10 hit points
Regdar gains 6 temporary hit points
Regdar takes a 4 hit point wound
Regdar's temporary hit points vanish

Is he wounded with 100% hit points, or do temporary hit points get abstracted, or do the wounds magically heal when the temporary hit points vanish (or some other explanation)?

[Saph]

So I was reading a thread where people were arguing about how HP, temporary HP, and damage should be translated into a story. I had a few suggestions that some DMs might find useful to making a battle scene more believable.

When a character or enemy is taking damage, I assume that character or enemy is using endurance to avoid direct hits from enemy attacks. Actions live dodging backwards, rolling sideways, blocking a swing, ducking a swipe, or "almost being knocked prone by the force of your enemy's attack" are often used when I describe hits above bloodied value.

This has been suggested many times before. The problem it always runs up against is that the flavour text and combat system for D&D (for pretty much all editions, as far as I know) is based on the idea that a hit means a hit, not a block/dodge. For instance, injury poisons affect a target on a damaging weapon hit. If the weapon isn't stabbing the target, how's the poison getting into their bloodstream? Ditto for improved-grab type abilities - they all assume the monster is actually grabbing you in its teeth or claws. And stuff like energy or ability drain explicitly says that it works when the monster hits you, not when it near-misses you. Then there's Swallow Whole - how exactly is the monster doing that without getting you into its mouth?

Your approach is also very unintuitive for new players. If a hit and a miss doesn't mean a hit and a miss, why does the book describe them as a 'hit' and a 'miss'? Again, why are healing spells and powers described as healing their targets if the target's only a bit tired out? 'Healing' implies there's been some actual wounding going on. You don't call for a medic when someone just needs to catch his breath.

Ultimately, the solution you're proposing makes the game less believable, not more, because the system's working against you all the way. It's simpler and more consistent just to describe non-lethal hits as shallow cuts or glancing blows.

- Saph

[Ravens_cry]

I think of temp hit points as adrenaline, as that fighting spirit, as that drive to survive. That part that can keep going, no matter what. Until the fights over, and you start to realize, 'hey, that broadsword through my intestines, and that arrow in my arm, and that war club that cracked my skull, they HURT!' and you go down in agony or to the grave.

[Matthew]

This has been suggested many times before. The problem it always runs up against is that the flavour text and combat system for D&D (for pretty much all editions, as far as I know) is based on the idea that a hit means a hit, not a block/dodge. For instance, injury poisons affect a target on a damaging weapon hit.

I don't think it's as clear cut as that. The flavour text of D&D as often contradicts that stance as it supports it.

If the weapon isn't stabbing the target, how's the poison getting into their bloodstream? Ditto for improved-grab type abilities - they all assume the monster is actually grabbing you in its teeth or claws. And stuff like energy or ability drain explicitly says that it works when the monster hits you, not when it near-misses you. Then there's Swallow Whole - how exactly is the monster doing that without getting you into its mouth?

In cases where it makes narrative sense to have a hit mean a hit, then it must be. In cases where you feel it does not make narrative sense for a hit to be a hit, it need not be.

Your approach is also very unintuitive for new players. If a hit and a miss doesn't mean a hit and a miss, why does the book describe them as a 'hit' and a 'miss'? Again, why are healing spells and powers described as healing their targets if the target's only a bit tired out? 'Healing' implies there's been some actual wounding going on. You don't call for a medic when someone just needs to catch his breath.

But since you actually function at your full capacity all the time until you reach 0, it doesn't follow that a character is significantly wounded in any meaningful way, and it makes little narrative sense for a hundred tiny cuts to require a "heal" spell or whatever.

Ultimately, the solution you're proposing makes the game less believable, not more, because the system's working against you all the way. It's simpler and more consistent just to describe non-lethal hits as shallow cuts or glancing blows.

No concrete conception of hit points ever makes absolute sense. As long as there is narrative sense, though, it doesn't matter.

I think of temp hit points as adrenaline, as that fighting spirit, as that drive to survive. That part that can keep going, no matter what. Until the fights over, and you start to realize, 'hey, that broadsword through my intestines, and that arrow in my arm, and that war club that cracked my skull, they HURT!' and you go down in agony or to the grave.

Different sort of temporary hit points, those. Hit points gained from temporary constitution increases, unlike temporary hit points, are not deducted first from the hit point total.

[Saph]

In cases where it makes narrative sense to have a hit mean a hit, then it must be. In cases where you feel it does not make narrative sense for a hit to be a hit, it need not be.

I'd say that the best way to make HP loss make narrative sense and also dovetail with the mechanics is to say that a damaging but non-lethal hit in HP terms means a damaging but non-lethal hit in narrative terms. It's simple, it means you don't have to redefine everything, and it means you don't have to do weird retroactive narrations to make things make sense. :)

- Saph

[Matthew]

I'd say that the best way to make HP loss make narrative sense and also dovetail with the mechanics is to say that a damaging but non-lethal hit in HP terms means a damaging but non-lethal hit in narrative terms. It's simple, it means you don't have to redefine everything, and it means you don't have to do weird retroactive narrations to make things make sense.

Well, apart from when your temporary hit points wander off.

But these things are subjective, not absolutes. The point was, whatever interpretation makes the best narrative sense to you and your group, you should use. For my part, I prefer to treat hit points in the manner that grants the most narrative freedom.

[erikun]

I generally describe most weaker cuts as glancing blows, which drew some blood but aren't enough to stop someone running on adrenaline. Then again, get enough small blows and you'll eventually go down. The "bloodied" concept in 4e is at least a nice way to describe things, as by then, the monster has taken enough damage that they're bleeding pretty badly.

If you take out 50%+ HP in one strike, or some similarly large blow, it's more like forcefully knocking their shield aside, cleaving into their armor, and leaving a large gash behind. For a blow that big, you've hurt them pretty badly.

As for the "same damage, different HP" scenario, remember that HP isn't only physical toughness. A level 1 fighter who just took 57 damage probably took an axe in the chest, while a level 15 fighter who took 57 damage just got out of the way, the axe striking his side but mostly deflected by the armor. It's the same attack, it's just that the level 15 guy knows how to "take the hit" in a way that isn't as fatal.

Temporary HP is almost always magical, so I generally consider it preemptive magical healing. (ie., if you get hurt, it heals up your wounds) And the reason it is "temporary" is because the magic doesn't last forever.

Also: stuff like a coup de grace on a helpless victim usually just attacks CON in my games. If your helpless and can't stop the hit, no amount of physical or magical training will help you.

[Ascension]

A perfectly valid approach. Same question from the last thread out of interest. What do you do about temporary hit points?

Regdar has 10 hit points
Regdar gains 6 temporary hit points
Regdar takes a 4 hit point wound
Regdar's temporary hit points vanish

Is he wounded with 100% hit points, or do temporary hit points get abstracted, or do the wounds magically heal when the temporary hit points vanish (or some other explanation)?

Good question. I really haven't done much DMing, and this situation hasn't come up very often in what little I've done. I guess it would depend on the source of the temporary hit points. If he received them as a result of magic then I'd say the blow landed, but then immediately healed (although in Aid's case it's listed as a Mind Affecting Compulsion, so it might be best to treat it as a morale boost of sorts... the fighter can take another hit because he thinks he can, or some rationalization like that). If the temp HP comes from a non-magical source (I think I remember some that give temp HP), then I'd probably describe them in a more mundane way...

[erikun]

Aid: the spirits of whoever's diety watch out for you, and partially ward off the blow. It's like a temporary AC boost, kinda.

Really, you could fluff it several different ways.

[Matthew]

Good question. I really haven't done much DMing, and this situation hasn't come up very often in what little I've done. I guess it would depend on the source of the temporary hit points. If he received them as a result of magic then I'd say the blow landed, but then immediately healed (although in Aid's case it's listed as a Mind Affecting Compulsion, so it might be best to treat it as a morale boost of sorts... the fighter can take another hit because he thinks he can, or some rationalization like that). If the temp HP comes from a non-magical source (I think I remember some that give temp HP), then I'd probably describe them in a more mundane way...

Exactly so; hit points are a flexible narrative tool and should be treated as such. Sometimes it makes sense to one person to treat them one way, and other times it makes sense to someone else to treat them another (and sometimes it makes sense either way). Keep your options open is my advice.

[nagora]

The problem it always runs up against is that the flavour text and combat system for D&D (for pretty much all editions, as far as I know) is based on the idea that a hit means a hit, not a block/dodge. For instance, injury poisons affect a target on a damaging weapon hit.

I agree that the terms are a problem. "Hit" can be thought of as "This would have hit a normal person" and damage as "This is the damage that a normal person would have suffered (with 8 and above being a kill)" but it would be better if the printed words were changed to something else, IMO.

Poison isn't a big issue - you just say that the saving throw represents (or partly represents) a check to see if there was actually a hit that allowed the poison the contact or if the "hit" was in fact a complete miss.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hit Points have never and will never translate well as anything but a game mechanic. Vitality And Wound Points, however, is a superb system for narration.

[Matthew]

Hit Points have never and will never translate well as anything but a game mechanic. Vitality And Wound Points, however, is a superb system for narration.

There is a subtle distinction to be observed with regards to how that system and the conventional system interact with narration. The vitality and wound point system more directly informs the combat narrative, and thus reduces overall narrative freedom; it is a good system if that is what you want (and there are good reasons to use it), but not so much otherwise.

[nagora]

Hit Points have never and will never translate well as anything but a game mechanic. Vitality And Wound Points, however, is a superb system for narration.

Tried that a few times but never felt it helped very much, while making combat more luck-ridden (a common problem with crit-based systems).

[only1doug]

Hit Points have never and will never translate well as anything but a game mechanic. Vitality And Wound Points, however, is a superb system for narration.

Vitality and Wound points is a Lethal system... big monsters hit so hard that PC's are unlikely to survive one critical hit, this has accounted for 2 PC deaths in our last 2 game sessions. the only way to survive is by stacking up hitpoint boost feats (which we have houseruled as adding to wound points) or becoming immune to criticals.

Of our current Party two PC's have Improved toughness (which we have houseruled needs toughness as a prerequisite), one PC is immune to criticals most of the time (warshaper) and most of the rest try to avoid melee.


(we do still lose people through hitpoint loss as well but crit immunity is handy)


Recent deaths:
Rogue: took greataxe crit 2d6+10 total 17 wounds, had 14 wound points.
Wizard: took natural weapon crit 1d10+10 total 14 wounds, had 12 wound points.
Sorcerer: took 11 Con drain and some hitpoint damage, Had 14 con 21 wp and 78 vp
scout: took large greatsword crit 3d6 +12 total 21 wounds, had 16 wound points.
Warshaper: ran out of vitality and wounds during long battle, normal death

My current character has 29 wp and 83 vp... if he gets healed when he's injured he can just about survive...