OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

[Lira]

Oh cool. I just noticed that the strip has been edited since it was posted. I've got the old one in one tab and the new one in another :P. The second last panel changed a little.

[Iago]

I don't know about Crowning Moment of Awesome, but is there such a thing as a Crowning Moment of Holy S---!?!?

I didn't register to post my cheer when Soon showed up to avenge the Sapphire Guard.

I didn't register to post my "aww..." when Haley reflected that "hiding is my best skill."

I didn't register to post my "Yeah!" when Roy demonstrated to Sabine via a plate-glass window that there is in fact an overlapping play style between Lawful Good and damned cool.

Nor did I post in response to perhaps Xykon's greatest line to date: "Factor three... Meteor Swarm."

But this? This.... this deserves recognition.

V was pretty much my favorite character before this, but damn. My elven sorceress has something new to pattern after. Although I do agree with all those who have written variations on "Hey, +5 armor and massive magic item hauls don't come along every day."

Oh, and as for Belkar: I do believe "starts with 's' and ends with 'litting their throats'" would recognize greatness in its own right....

[JonahFalcon]

Ideally he would like to bring this to trial, but ther is only one eyewitness, who himself was out for blood just a minute ago. It is literally ones word against the other, and either way it turns out Hinjo loses a valuable ally (either through conviction or just turning them against him) in exchange for the loss of a dangerous enemy. His morals are clear here, but the situation means he can't win no matter what. That's a loss of idealism.?

How do you know Hinjo won't be blamed? Other factions will accuse him of eliminating a rival because he felt they were a better ruler than him. They will accuse Hinjo of hiring an assassin to off his competition. Hinjo's power base will weaken at its most critical base: the people's trust.

[JonahFalcon]

No. Nobody's going to assume Hinjo arranged it. See, Hinjo's a paladin. If he planned the assassination of a rival, you're looking at an evil act and a gross violation of the code of conduct, which means he wouldn't be a paladin anymore. So all he has to do is display paladin abilities, and everyone will know he didn't.

No, EVERYONE will assume he did it. He's the PRIME SUSPECT.

(Furthermore, apparently, aristocrats can hide from magic truth-telling. They'd assume Hinjo has the same ability. There's about a million ways to hide your alignment, etc in D&D.)

[Galathir]

I don't usually comment on the comics, but this one was just . . . just awesome. Way to go V.

[JonahFalcon]

I don't usually comment on the comics, but this one was just . . . just awesome. Way to go V.

V just made things worse. Book it.

[EvilElitest]

Let's not start quoting Yoda.

But the issue is this: it was a rash act, not practical. Things like this never happen in a vacuum. It's not like Kotaku (I know that's not his name) didn't have followers, a faction, etc.

Usually, what follows assassinations is an even worse situation. Can you name an assassination in which there was peace afterward?

I'm just responding to the claims of practicality. Weather it actually was pratical or not can't be known yet.

Um, assassinations can be effective, but if they are, we never really hear about it. Botched assassinations are normally the ones that we hear about. Some have been pulled off, but your right, they often do have a lot of problems
from
EE

[JonahFalcon]

Let's see the progression:

Hinjo is blamed for his death.

Hinjo says, "No, it wasn't me!"

They say, "Yeah, right. Who did then?"

Hinjo now is in trouble. He asks the OOTS if they knew what happened. And asks pointedly and point blank.

Elan's not going to lie. He's going to say V did it.

What is Hinjo going to do?

Do nothing? Well, aside from being against LG paladin, he's going to be involved in a cover up that's going to be found out.

Otherwise, he's going to have to take appropriate action.

Now, if he goes to trial and attempts to give V a light sentence, that'll ruin him because he's going to be accused of being an accomplice after the fact.

There's no good way the story can naturally progress without some serious consequences.

[see]

No, EVERYONE will assume he did it. He's the PRIME SUSPECT.

(Furthermore, apparently, aristocrats can hide from magic truth-telling. They'd assume Hinjo has the same ability. There's about a million ways to hide your alignment, etc in D&D.)

If Hinjo had hired an assassin, at that moment, he would have fallen, ceasing to be a paladin, just like what happened when Miko killed Lord Shojo. Right then, right there, at that moment. There is no magic alignment-masking or lie-detection avoidance to stop that from happening.

So, all Hinjo has to show is that he's a paladin. Right then, right there, he's given absolute, incontrovertible proof that he never hired an assassin. End of story. Nobody in the story's going to assume he arranged an assassination, because unlike you, they have some idea of how things actually work under the D&D rules.

[Eraniverse]

1) has he cast any yet? If not, then yes it is evil. Just gag him
2) Yes. He is still an unarmed prisoner, and killing prisoners is clearly evil according to D&D, as it is murder

If he isn't using them, yes. It might be a good idea to prevent him from using them, if he hasn't used them yet, then you don't have a justification.

Yes he has been using them! He's been "casting" up a storm. He's been sending assassins with his aristocratic influence for quite a long time. In fact his latest attack was minutes ago.

This power was inherent in Kubota's position and existence. No convenient gagging. And he was literally enumerating the ways he was neither unarmed nor a prisoner of anything but his own convenience.

[JonahFalcon]

I'm just responding to the claims of practicality. Weather it actually was pratical or not can't be known yet.

Um, assassinations can be effective, but if they are, we never really hear about it. Botched assassinations are normally the ones that we hear about. Some have been pulled off, but your right, they often do have a lot of problems
from
EE

Name one assassination that was effective. By definition, an assassination is a political coup. Name one that ever worked out smoothly, especially in the long run. (laugh)

[JonahFalcon]

If Hinjo had hired an assassin, at that moment, he would have fallen, ceasing to be a paladin, just like what happened when Miko killed Lord Shojo. Right then, right there, at that moment. There is no magic alignment-masking or lie-detection avoidance to stop that from happening.

So, all Hinjo has to show is that he's a paladin. Right then, right there, he's given absolute, incontrovertible proof that he never hired an assassin. End of story. Nobody in the story's going to assume he arranged an assassination, because unlike you, they have some idea of how things actually work under the D&D rules.

Yeah, because the common person can tell a fallen paladin from a paladin. (rolling eyes)

I can do magic tricks, too. Doesn't mean I can do magic. There's plenty of ways toi hide a fallen paladin. And again, you're assuming the populace would care or understand. And see my post above.

[Skaarg]

The End Justifies The Means.

The rallying cry of evil people everywhere!

(Including Redcloak in Start of Darkness. Which, by the way, I cannot recommend enough - I like OoTS in general, but it wasn't until I read Start of Darkness that it really blew me away.)

[JonahFalcon]

If Hinjo had hired an assassin, at that moment, he would have fallen, ceasing to be a paladin, just like what happened when Miko killed Lord Shojo. Right then, right there, at that moment. There is no magic alignment-masking or lie-detection avoidance to stop that from happening.

So, all Hinjo has to show is that he's a paladin. Right then, right there, he's given absolute, incontrovertible proof that he never hired an assassin. End of story. Nobody in the story's going to assume he arranged an assassination, because unlike you, they have some idea of how things actually work under the D&D rules.

Oh, by the way, Hinjo will find out. To quote him earlier: good does not equal stupid.

Doing nothing = fallen paladin.

[HOLEkevin]

Thank GOD!

Yay Vaarsuvius! Let's get back to saving the world!

[pswbr]

I dont know if I cry for kubota, which was awesome with his evil schemes, or I cheer for V because of his outstanding demonstration of power and lack of ethical bounds.

[dragongirl13]

WHOA

Nice one, V, but... why?

I hope they don't charge V with anything...

[Swordguy]

So? Weather he was threat or not isn't the issue. THe issue is that V has committed an evil action in murdering a defenseless unarmed man who had already surrendered.
from
EE

And yet...

If you have the opportunity to permanently stop future evil from occurring, and choose not to do so, then you've committed evil by inaction. Kabuto had just finished saying that he was going to essentially rig the trial, go free, and go right back to doing evil acts - not acting on that information is certainly evil by inaction. Good cannot NOT take action against evil when evil presents itself.

So, either V does nothing and lets Kabuto be prosecuted, in which case Kabuto commits future evil by his own admission and thus V commits an evil act, or V takes decisive action to stop the future evil from occurring and thus V commits an evil act.

There is no "Good" option here.

They're both evil acts - but I know which one I'd rather have happen, and I suspect most people would have happen as well.

[tboneplayerj]

" Can we finally get back to saving the world?"

Bout time someone said that haha

[JonahFalcon]

And yet...

If you have the opportunity to permanently stop future evil from occurring, and choose not to do so, then you've committed evil by inaction. Kabuto had just finished saying that he was going to essentially rig the trial, go free, and go right back to doing evil acts - not acting on that information is certainly evil by inaction. Good cannot NOT take action against evil when evil presents itself.

So, either V does nothing and lets Kabuto be prosecuted, in which case Kabuto commits future evil by his own admission and thus commits an evil act, or V takes decisive action to stop the future evil from occurring and thus commits an evil act.

There is no "Good" option here.

Future evil? Who are you, the Oracle? Are we going to start executing people because they SAY or MIGHT perform an evil act?

And there is a "Good" option. Only evil people claim there isn't.

[JonahFalcon]

" Can we finally get back to saving the world?"

Bout time someone said that haha

Just wait til Hinjo has to put V on trial. Cooked Hinjoburger.

[Lamech]

The killing was an evil act. V didn't make sure that this would make things better, for crying out loud Kubota would certainly have the money for a clone item. Nor does this deal with Quar. And he doesn't actually know that Kubota is responsible for any of this, this is DnD and Quar has mind control powers; he can't claim he was killing someone to keep him from skating without confirming he wasn't an unwilling puppet. Nor was killing even Kubota nessecery to, as I have pointed out it was fully possible to make him good via atonment, and blackmail; that would have meant that escaping justice was actually a good thing, for all, and it would have meant that V wouldn't have risked killing a puppet.

[JonahFalcon]

The rallying cry of evil people everywhere!

Well, Machiavelli, anyway. Do you prefer to rule your people through love or fear?

[Ganurath]

I just had a thought:

Kubota had to have seen V coming. He only had his eyes shut for a round, and Overland Flight wouldn't get V to cover that ground in such a short time. Despite this, he kept on with his rant. Why?

The obvious conclusion is that Kubota did not think that V was a threat. Why would he think this? He's an intelligent individual, well aware of the mechanics of the world as seen in 594, and yet he ignores a high level wizard as a threat. It doesn't make sense.

It does, however, when you consider what he knows: Elan is the most dangerous member of the Order among those present, the dwarf is powerless without transportation, which is provided by an elf who just wants to be left alone to study. As far as Kubota knew, V would only be a threat if Kubota was disrupting his studies. He probably threw that line in about the trail lasting weeks to try to appease the isolationist wizard. Now, where did he get this flawed impression of the situation?

Through misinformation, Therkla killed Kubota from beyond the grave.

[JonahFalcon]

The killing was an evil act. V didn't make sure that this would make things better, for crying out loud Kubota would certainly have the money for a clone item. Nor does this deal with Quar. And he doesn't actually know that Kubota is responsible for any of this, this is DnD and Quar has mind control powers; he can't claim he was killing someone to keep him from skating without confirming he wasn't an unwilling puppet. Nor was killing even Kubota nessecery to, as I have pointed out it was fully possible to make him good via atonment, and blackmail; that would have meant that escaping justice was actually a good thing, for all.

Blackmail would probably be the best (and only) way to keep Kubota in his place.

The best method of getting rid of him is the Yojimbo method: have him fight a rival til they kill each other.

[Eraniverse]

Yeah, because the common person can tell a fallen paladin from a paladin. (rolling eyes)

I can do magic tricks, too. Doesn't mean I can do magic. There's plenty of ways toi hide a fallen paladin. And again, you're assuming the populace would care or understand. And see my post above.

As we've seen, the judicial system of the Sapphire City is literally composed of paladins and they can summon celestials (it's happened before and presumably they weren't all Roy's dad in disguise) to arbitrate and judge.

Is there any way to fake holy powers to proper celestial? I'm really not sure but I'd bet against it.

And Elan would lie if he felt it was the right thing to do. That's the real question and I don't think you can assert for sure one way or the other.

[redwulf25_ci]

Yeah, because the common person can tell a fallen paladin from a paladin. (rolling eyes)

Um, yes they can? Their clothing turns beige.

[Nevitan]

I just had a thought:

Kubota had to have seen V coming. He only had his eyes shut for a round, and Overland Flight wouldn't get V to cover that ground in such a short time. Despite this, he kept on with his rant. Why?

I tink V might of been moving at the speed of plot to get there.

[JonahFalcon]

I just had a thought:

Kubota had to have seen V coming. He only had his eyes shut for a round, and Overland Flight wouldn't get V to cover that ground in such a short time. Despite this, he kept on with his rant. Why?

No. He didn't even notice the devil was stoned til Elan hopped on his dinghy. Kubota isn't the Oracle. He didn't have some backup plan to avoid being atomized.

But Kubota's status is much more dangerous now. Hinjo's going to have to prosecute the minute he finds out.

What's V going to do, kill Hinjo because he's in the way of Zykon?

[EvilElitest]

Name one assassination that was effective. By definition, an assassination is a political coup. Name one that ever worked out smoothly, especially in the long run. (laugh)

A coup or an assassination. If a coup, well Napleon's take over went quite smoothly. And Joseph's stalin's assassinations of his allies went well for him.

And yet...

If you have the opportunity to permanently stop future evil from occurring, and choose not to do so, then you've committed evil by inaction. Kabuto had just finished saying that he was going to essentially rig the trial, go free, and go right back to doing evil acts - not acting on that information is certainly evil by inaction. Good cannot NOT take action against evil when evil presents itself.

Fallacy. Evil can committed through inaction, but Elan is not going to result to inaction. He is would attempt to get Kabuto properly punished. Just because Kuboto says he'd get off, doesn't mean he would. Simply put, Elan isn't going to simply not take action, he is just going to avoid committing evil,

So, either V does nothing and lets Kabuto be prosecuted, in which case Kabuto commits future evil by his own admission and thus V commits an evil act, or V takes decisive action to stop the future evil from occurring and thus V commits an evil act.

There is no "Good" option here.

yes there is, because letting Kuboto get a trial isn't evil. It is an out right lie to claim that the only "good" solution is to murder an unarmed prisoner. Evil through inaction would be Elan and V refusing to act as witnesses against Kubota in his trial, IE taking his words at face value and giving up before even trying to convict him. A good solution would be to attempt to get Kuboto tried and convicted. There is still evidence against him, and he certainly will suffer through a reputation loss. In fact, even if he gets off, that wouldn't be an evil act on the part of the good guys, that is just them failing the trial, better luck next time

They're both evil acts - but I know which one I'd rather have happen, and I suspect most people would have happen as well.

ends justifies the means only leads to more evil, as you make the difference between the good and evil people no longer relevant
from
EE