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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eraniverse View Post
    Wasn't implying you were. There were a couple of fatalistic posts a while back saying that bad writing trumps all. This thread is flying.

    And lawful? V physically attacked a stable manager for overly strict over ticket rules. And tampered with the fundamental natural order. I'm sorry but I'll need to see some proof of lawful behavior.
    your talking about her actions, i'm talking about the way she goes about her actions, which is where the law chaos thing comes into play. Studious, careful, intellegent, V tends to handle problems in a very meticulous manner, even when she is doing crazythings. Even her attacks on Belkar were very well planned out and thought through, part of a complicated and elaberate plan. She occassionally loses her temper, but her way of handling things is lawful
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    No, because there is a difference between killing and murder
    A "really really good society" wouldn't think so, though, and neither do you, since you already qualified ending the life of someone who cannot resist it as an inarguably evil act regardless of circumstance, intention, or whether it is deserved or agreed upon by any persons.

    Really, even if you take that tack you only raise the question of who has or doesn't have the right to arbitrate the difference between killing and murder, which is even more inconstant. Essentially, you say that V disintegrating him is murder but a group of old men beheading him for the exact same reasons is just killing. All that really does is posit that there are poeple who reserve the right to decide what is good and what is evil, or at least circumstances exist where such judications can be made, which further contradicts your idea of white/black morality by making it completely moot and inconstant.

    Also:

    Elitist; noun; consciousness of being a person or belonging to a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence

    Technically, we agree completely: why pretend to be something anyone can tell you aren't? Of course, since I couldn't find it anywhere in the good ol' 11th Edition, I couldn't look up 'elitest,' so perhaps I am just in need of more reliable reference and the descriptor fits you perfectly. But I know which way to bet.
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    Pick me! Pick me! We could threaten him with death unless he accepts some sort of magic like an atonement spell, to change his aligment to good! Then instead of being evil and doing evil things he would be good and do good things.
    We could also petrify him, or stasis him, but that would be worse than death since he wouldn't get an afterlife.
    If you forced him to atone and become of good alignment, he'd quickly slip back into evil once you stopped watching him. Alignment is just a reflection of your actions, not the cause of them.

    And V's actions here, while borderline evil/chaotic, was simply the right thing to do. The way to see it, is that he didn't really surrender, he just took advantage of Elan's morals to survive another day and backstab him later. Not unlike a villain who drops his weapon only to pick it back up when the hero looks away.





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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    1) Killing a serial murderer as he is being an active threat (IE coming at you with a knife) isn't murder, but killing him as he sits in jail is. There are other solutions, particurally when insanity is curable in D&D
    2) What you do care about is irrelevant in terms of personal morality. Personal/real world morality are not the issue here, because this isnt' a discussion of real life morals, its a discussion of D&D morals where murder is always evil
    3) There are two things in the BOED i disagree with, mind control and poison. That doens't make the book any worst, i just disagree. It means that morals are different from mine and i disagree, but it doesn't make ether the book's purpose irrelevant, nor does it make the fact that it actually adressed these moral question any less admirable

    Its a monarchy. The nature of the treason depends on how it is carried out, technically a bunch of people demanding the 12gods no longer be part of the goverening system is treason



    Not when you have to commit murder in order to pull it off. He was still an unarmed prisoner and thus killing him is evil. that isn't execution, which requires a trial, thats taking the law into your own hands, which is hubris
    Points 1-3: The fact that I don't care means that I'm not going to debate this with you further, because D&D morality, despite your assertions to the contrary, has very little to do with what's in the texts. In practice, D&D alignments are determined by what the players and DM find appropriate; informed by the rules, yes, but hardly dictated by them. Thus, D&D morality is exactly equivalent to real-world morality, just with more obvious heroes and villains.

    If you disagree with something in a text, then the rest of the text becomes suspect. If you feel it's okay to disagree with the mind control bit, then who are you to claim that I cannot disagree with the alleged "killing is always bad" part? Ergo, drop the damned BoED already.

    Demands =/= disagreement, and again, calls for reform ARE NOT TREASON. They would only become treason if the reformers, upon failing to convince the king, began a campaign to bring him down.

    If taking someone to trial would be dangerous or unnecessarily complicated in cases where the fate of the world is at stake, then it is fine to kill him, much like unsurrendered, unconscious enemies in the middle of the wilderness in a different campaign. You can't drag them back to civilization, because the lost Orb of Phantasmagoria is going to be used by the Black Moon cultists in a fortnight, and you can just barely get to them on time. Tying them up either invites death or them escaping, and continuing to prey on travelers.

    I argue that Kubota has pointed out both danger and unnecessary complication in giving him due process of law, and thus extralegal actions are justified.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Arameus View Post
    A "really really good society" wouldn't think so, though, and neither do you, since you already qualified ending the life of someone who cannot resist it as an inarguably evil act regardless of circumstance, intention, or whether it is deserved or agreed upon by any persons.
    An exalted society wouldn't ever execute somebody no. However, outside the heavens, i don't think there are any exalted societies. A good society however, could execute without becoming evil, it just isn't good ether. Murder can never be commited, while execution (after a fair trial of course) is simply killing

    Really, even if you take that tack you only raise the question of who has or doesn't have the right to arbitrate the difference between killing and murder, which is even more inconstant. Essentially, you say that V disintegrating him is murder but a group of old men beheading him for the exact same reasons is just killing. All that really does is posit that there are poeple who reserve the right to decide what is good and what is evil, or at least circumstances exist where such judications can be made, which further contradicts your idea of white/black morality by making it completely moot and inconstant.
    No, because in on situation there is a fair trial. Kobato doesn't die because old men decied it, he dies because a fair trial has found him guilty. V is simply taking justice into her own hands and executing him on the spot.

    Your the one being inconsistent, because your sighting claims I haven't made and jumping to conclusions to support an argument that doesn't mesh with what i'm saying

    Also:

    Elitist; noun; consciousness of being a person or belonging to a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence

    Technically, we agree completely: why pretend to be something anyone can tell you aren't? Of course, since I couldn't find it anywhere in the good ol' 11th Edition, I couldn't look up 'elitest,' so perhaps I am just in need of more reliable reference and the descriptor fits you perfectly. But I know which way to bet.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism


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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    your talking about her actions, i'm talking about the way she goes about her actions, which is where the law chaos thing comes into play. Studious, careful, intellegent, V tends to handle problems in a very meticulous manner, even when she is doing crazythings. Even her attacks on Belkar were very well planned out and thought through, part of a complicated and elaberate plan. She occassionally loses her temper, but her way of handling things is lawful
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    Logical != Lawful. Though I can see how its easy to make that mistake.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Hehe, V doesn't like being upstaged in his monologues. XD

    Seriously, though, I was pleasantly surprised when I dully checked for a comic today, and was ready to scream with joy when I read this.

    I don't get what people mean when they say Vaarsuvius did an evil act because he just disintegrated Kubota without knowing that he'd killed Therkla/was planning this or that. For that, you have to assume Vaarsuvius really DID just 'walk in and shoot', in typical Mal fashion. I think it's just as easy to assume that he walked in, heard the obviously captured villain ranting about getting away with it all into Elan's face, made the appropriate conclusions (what with Elan being Elan), and kicked Kubota into the proverbial engine, so to speak. ....What? That has GOT to become a proverb! :D

    But yeah, the sole purpose of the escaping Ninja is probably to testify against Vaarsuvius on this... (Now that I think of it, Kubota probably wasn't intending to go to trial at all, and was just stalling for time, knowing that his ninja is still around and waiting him to overpower Elan.)

    Frankly, I'm more interested in how Vaarsuvius managed to disintegrate Kubota through Elan, and what would've happened if he'd missed a little. XD
    Last edited by Kaytara; 2008-09-22 at 11:16 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    This comic was interesting enough that I made an account to post in this thread.

    I think there's an interesting argument here based off not only what do the D&D rules say, but what's real and what do people know as their characters?

    Too often people treat Good and Evil like Bioware treated the light and darkside in the Kotor games. A solution that works for the best good would often earn darkside points. The best example I can remember here is when on Korriban you'd have some Sith Punks harassing a random dude.

    You pretty much had the option to:

    A: Kill all the Sith and save him
    B. Join in and ill him and get a drink with the Sith.
    C. Kill them all
    D. Kick him around a little bit to convince the Sith you're on their side, then convince them that killing random dudes are no fun.

    Only A, the second bloodest option was only lightside. Only B was completely Darkside. C would give you points for saving the dude before killing him randomly, and D would give you darkside points for deception. Despite the fact that C is the blood thirsty Crazy and D is the best outcome.

    What I try to illustrate from that is an evil act in the service of good can have a much better outcome then killing all the evil dudes, or doing the noble thing. In my own RPing I saw the potential to convert those Sith later back to the light.

    What V did is unethical perhaps. Killing a prisoner? Yeah, generally speaking bad. We can guess that V heard the whole argument and has spoken enough with Elan to know the whole spiele about the Civil war that would manifest from putting him on trial with out good evidence.

    I'd suggest that V knows the mere act of depending on a truth spell would make the other nobles uncomfortable. Elan and the Katos are known partisans of Hinjo. They are not going to be considered neutral by Nobles who are suspicious of Hinjo. Needing truth magic on our now dead prisoner and trying to base the case on that would not sit well with other Nobles. A civil war alone is a pretty bad fate and one to avoid. Now he's dead, but in away that's deniable 100% and he's unable to plot anymore. And at worst their will be unprovable suspicion on V.

    Let alone that all this time being wasted? THREATENS THE FATE OF THE WORLD.

    Those caps are sadly needed. All this time wasted? Threatens the world. This side quest means our favorite Lich and his self-hating assistant have more time to End The World.

    That trial would also make unstable the best NPC allies, rending the ability for them to help impotent.

    I prefer the "In Pale Moonlight" ethics of this situation. For those of you unfamiliar with DS9, Sometimes you gotta do evil to win. Reality can be harsh to lawful good, and an evil act may be the only way to keep the freaking world alive, because good can't always be stopping to get cats outta trees.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    your talking about her actions, i'm talking about the way she goes about her actions, which is where the law chaos thing comes into play. Studious, careful, intellegent, V tends to handle problems in a very meticulous manner, even when she is doing crazythings. Even her attacks on Belkar were very well planned out and thought through, part of a complicated and elaberate plan. She occassionally loses her temper, but her way of handling things is lawful
    from
    EE
    Law vs. Chaos

    The Law versus Chaos axis in Dungeons & Dragons predates Good versus Evil in the game rules. In esoteric Greyhawk setting lore, too, the precepts of Law and Chaos predate Good and Evil in the world's prehistory. Players often consider Law and Chaos less relevant to their character than Good and Evil. Confusingly, a Lawful alignment does not necessarily mean that a character obeys a region's laws.

    The third edition D&D rules define law and chaos as follows:

    Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

    Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

    It is more common for creatures to be neutral with regard Law/Chaos than Good/Evil. Certain extraplanar creatures, such as the numerous and powerful Modrons, are always Lawful. Conversely, Slaadi are Chaotic, representing beings of chaos. Dwarven societies are usually lawful, while Elven societies are most often chaotic.
    Which of those best describe V? Law/Chaos is just as valid as Good/Evil. Chaotic does not mean not having a plan... it means wanting to make your own plan.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    2) Alright, fair enough, if that is the case, then let me explain. In D&D, Good and Evil are absolute. So certain actions will always be evil, like torture, rape, murder ect, no matter that the situation is. BoED is the Book of Exalted Deeds, which covers this
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    Another one of those "always evil" acts it describes is magically changing someone's alignment. A couple pages later, it offers a Good spell to change someone's alignment to Good.

    Short version: the BoED isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
    When in doubt, light something on fire.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Doesn't matter
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sucrose View Post
    Points 1-3: The fact that I don't care means that I'm not going to debate this with you further, because D&D morality, despite your assertions to the contrary, has very little to do with what's in the texts. In practice, D&D alignments are determined by what the players and DM find appropriate; informed by the rules, yes, but hardly dictated by them. Thus, D&D morality is exactly equivalent to real-world morality, just with more obvious heroes and villains.
    So basically, your saying because the text doesn't support yoru argument, your going to declare it irrelevant and move on as if it hasn't' happened, in order to prove your point. So dispite the fact that murder is inherently evil (BoED chapter 1 and 2) your just gong to not counter any argument because it weakens your argument.

    um, have fun i guess
    If you disagree with something in a text, then the rest of the text becomes suspect. If you feel it's okay to disagree with the mind control bit, then who are you to claim that I cannot disagree with the alleged "killing is always bad" part? Ergo, drop the damned BoED already.
    Disagreeing with the text is a personal issue. i didn't make the rules i just fallow them. You are disagreeing with it on the basis it doesn't work that way, while i am putting my own personal morals aside and saying "Yeah, it does work taht way, its in the rules, deal with it"

    My personal morals are relevant, only the morals of the game, Which are defined in BoED, and so it is perfectly relevant. Just because it doesn't support your idea of vigilante justice doesn't make it irrelvant
    Demands =/= disagreement, and again, calls for reform ARE NOT TREASON. They would only become treason if the reformers, upon failing to convince the king, began a campaign to bring him down.
    Yeah they could be. Treason is a subjective term. A nation might say that gonig against the gods is treason, impliying the king might be wrong is treason, worshiping other gods is treason
    If taking someone to trial would be dangerous or unnecessarily complicated in cases where the fate of the world is at stake, then it is fine to kill him, much like unsurrendered, unconscious enemies in the middle of the wilderness in a different campaign.
    No its not, because it is still murder, and when you resort to evil actions, you are admitting defeat
    You can't drag them back to civilization, because the lost Orb of Phantasmagoria is going to be used by the Black Moon cultists in a fortnight, and you can just barely get to them on time. Tying them up either invites death or them escaping, and continuing to prey on travelers.
    You know, making very narrow and vaugly defined situations doesn't actually prove a point. The solution depends upon the specifics

    I argue that Kubota has pointed out both danger and unnecessary complication in giving him due process of law, and thus extralegal actions are justified.
    No because in D&D the murder of an unarmed prisoner are never justified. Its lazy, arrogant, hypocritical, cowardly and most importantly, evil to kill him just because its easier. Good is always the hard way
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Of course it's wrong. This is going to spark a civil war among the remnants of Azure City. That doesn't mean it wasn't awesome and well overdue, but this is going to cause no end of trouble.

    Of course, there'd be no end of trouble with him alive, but this is going to be more immediate.
    Why would the death of the most likely leader of a revolt SPARK civil war? Most likely V greatly reduced the chance at that.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfey View Post
    Very good argument.
    Bravo, sir. I agree 100%.
    Last edited by Sucrose; 2008-09-22 at 11:21 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Go V!!!!!!!!

    Zomg, that was the best trial I have ever seen. But the last panel was the best. I think V summed up all of our thoughts about this arc in that single sentence. Bravo.
    Here's something you may not have considered: being torn asunder HURTS.
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by spectralphoenix View Post
    Another one of those "always evil" acts it describes is magically changing someone's alignment. A couple pages later, it offers a Good spell to change someone's alignment to Good.

    Short version: the BoED isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
    one inconsistency doesn't make the book worthless. Also i think the spell i meant for atonements/sanctioned creatures, but i'm not sure

    Logical != Lawful. Though I can see how its easy to make that mistake.
    i'm thinking more orginized and consistent actually
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    There is no way that was the 4 words. V isn't near level 20, and killing the magnificent bastard gives only a little XP and a lot of badass points.
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post


    i'm thinking more orginized and consistent actually
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    Which still doesn't equate to Lawfulness, those are just habits.

    I could imagine a chaotic character who was insanely OCD about everything.

    Edit: Also, again, BoED is an optional supplement.
    Last edited by Ryusacerdos; 2008-09-22 at 11:24 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfey View Post
    This comic was interesting enough that I made an account to post in this thread.

    I think there's an interesting argument here based off not only what do the D&D rules say, but what's real and what do people know as their characters?

    Too often people treat Good and Evil like Bioware treated the light and darkside in the Kotor games. A solution that works for the best good would often earn darkside points. The best example I can remember here is when on Korriban you'd have some Sith Punks harassing a random dude.

    You pretty much had the option to:

    A: Kill all the Sith and save him
    B. Join in and ill him and get a drink with the Sith.
    C. Kill them all
    D. Kick him around a little bit to convince the Sith you're on their side, then convince them that killing random dudes are no fun.

    Only A, the second bloodest option was only lightside. Only B was completely Darkside. C would give you points for saving the dude before killing him randomly, and D would give you darkside points for deception. Despite the fact that C is the blood thirsty Crazy and D is the best outcome.

    What I try to illustrate from that is an evil act in the service of good can have a much better outcome then killing all the evil dudes, or doing the noble thing. In my own RPing I saw the potential to convert those Sith later back to the light.

    What V did is unethical perhaps. Killing a prisoner? Yeah, generally speaking bad. We can guess that V heard the whole argument and has spoken enough with Elan to know the whole spiele about the Civil war that would manifest from putting him on trial with out good evidence.

    I'd suggest that V knows the mere act of depending on a truth spell would make the other nobles uncomfortable. Elan and the Katos are known partisans of Hinjo. They are not going to be considered neutral by Nobles who are suspicious of Hinjo. Needing truth magic on our now dead prisoner and trying to base the case on that would not sit well with other Nobles. A civil war alone is a pretty bad fate and one to avoid. Now he's dead, but in away that's deniable 100% and he's unable to plot anymore. And at worst their will be unprovable suspicion on V.

    Let alone that all this time being wasted? THREATENS THE FATE OF THE WORLD.

    Those caps are sadly needed. All this time wasted? Threatens the world. This side quest means our favorite Lich and his self-hating assistant have more time to End The World.

    That trial would also make unstable the best NPC allies, rending the ability for them to help impotent.

    I prefer the "In Pale Moonlight" ethics of this situation. For those of you unfamiliar with DS9, Sometimes you gotta do evil to win. Reality can be harsh to lawful good, and an evil act may be the only way to keep the freaking world alive, because good can't always be stopping to get cats outta trees.
    1) In D&d good and evil are objective. Right and wrong are subjective.
    2) That being said, the moment you start saying "this is for the greater good" or "Ends justifies the means' your basically admitting that evil won by you narrowing your focus to not include the good option available to you, because apperently they are too difficult.
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    1) In D&d good and evil are objective. Right and wrong are subjective.
    Show me the source.
    Last edited by Ryusacerdos; 2008-09-22 at 11:26 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    i'm thinking more orginized and consistent actually
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    Please refer to post #399

    Chaotic does mean not having a plan. It represents an intolerance for having arbitrary authority dictate a plan to you. Check V's reaction to the few battles spent fighting alongside Miko.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    one inconsistency doesn't make the book worthless. Also i think the spell i meant for atonements/sanctioned creatures, but i'm not sure
    So how about the poisons and ravages? Poisons are always evil because they cause unnecessary pain, so here are new pois-*cough*- RAVAGES that cause even more pain, but they only affect evil creatures, for you exalted types. It also basically recommends Holy Word as a substitute for Detect Evil.

    And more to the point, you cannot claim that V's actions are evil because the BoED said so if you only listen to the BoED some of the time.
    When in doubt, light something on fire.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eraniverse View Post
    Which of those best describe V? Law/Chaos is just as valid as Good/Evil. Chaotic does not mean not having a plan... it means wanting to make your own plan.
    Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
    V is certianly honorable, trustworthy (at least when she sleeps) judgmental, lack of adaptability at tiems, adherence to tradition, reliablity, and sometimes close mindedness. She also tends to act in an orginized and lawful faction. I admit she could be TN, but i'm thinking LN
    So how about the poisons and ravages? Poisons are always evil because they cause unnecessary pain, so here are new pois-*cough*- RAVAGES that cause even more pain, but they only affect evil creatures, for you exalted types. It also basically recommends Holy Word as a substitute for Detect Evil.
    Is it a silly rule. Certainly. Is poison being evil silly? yes. does that make the book lose validity. not really, it just means that one aspect of D&D morality doesn't make sense. however, it is still a rule, silly or not, so if we are going with D&D aligniment it still matters

    [QUOTE]
    And more to the point, you cannot claim that V's actions are evil because the BoED said so if you only listen to the BoED some of the time.

    I listen to it all the time. You are the one who's evading the actual issue by pointing out problems in other parts of the book.
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    Last edited by EvilElitest; 2008-09-22 at 11:31 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #414
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    Well, thanks. I'll be sure to call up my old platoon sergeant and tell him that we're all evil. Those people we shot at in our engagement zone were wearing body armor and headscarves and carrying RPGs and rifles, and there were no friendlies but us operating in that area, and they were setting up a mortar position to drop fire in our firebase...but they hadn't actually done anything yet, so it was CLEARLY evil for us to shoot them. The fact we found documentation on them showing that they had put fire on us on previous occasions clearly means nothing, does it?

    I think you've said here what I've been thinking, but EE has been arguing against. I think that while V's act was more chaotic than anything, it was not evil. Waiting for a trial? Lawful. Skipping the trial because you know the accused will rig the thing and end up scott-free? Chaotic and shady, but in the world of D&D I don't see it as evil. Most DM's I know would give XP for dealing with the issue...

    And I'm sorry, but I don't believe this goody-good argument that all of Kabuto's threats and testiments to rigging the trial (fresh after murdering someone) don't mean anything at all. Come on now. I'm reading posts that would say to let him have a trial, KNOWING that he will get away with it (and make Hinjo lose face in the process), and that anything else would be evil. What you're saying is that there's no way to capture or incriminate this villain. If a DM wrote that scenario into my D&D game, I might be looking for a new group.

    While V's methods were crude, the results in my opinion have more likely spared many more deaths and injustices (and I say V is just as qualified as anyone to judge; after all, what places a judge above other mortals?).
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Show me the source.
    Good and evil being objective? PHB, BOED, BOVD, Manuel of the Planes, Fiend Folio, ect ect

    Right and wrong being subjective. There is no defnintion of right and wrong in any D&D book that is absolute. Right and wrong is what you think it is
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    That was very harsh. Not sure if the ends justify the means, but I have to give my props to V. We heard that Kabuto was going to flagrantly use the system to his benefit, and would most likely get off on the charges against him. And then what? Another ninja strike against his enemies? Perhaps V accomplished what could have happened over the course of dozens of comics.

    All I can say is that I shared Elan's expression. V did what?
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Now there was a truly explosive runes quality strip! Way to go , it's nice to see a villain of any true scale get what was coming to them.

    As far as ramifications against V in further strips, it would be completely unlike V to have not considered all aspects before eliminating a character with such a large amount of political sway. My largest fear is that V has gotten so self enamored that S/he intends to merely deal with an attempted arrest or similar problem with a truly misguided use of arcane power.

    Last bit of food for thought is does a pile of dust constitute a being? I would say that the proficiency has not been fulfilled, only one of the four words was spoken to a person.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
    I think you've said here what I've been thinking, but EE has been arguing against. I think that while V's act was more chaotic than anything, it was not evil. Waiting for a trial? Lawful. Skipping the trial because you know the accused will rig the thing and end up scott-free? Chaotic and shady, but in the world of D&D I don't see it as evil. Most DM's I know would give XP for dealing with the issue...
    Murdering an unarmed helpless man who had already surrendered. Clearly evil, as well as being hypocritcal, cowardly, arrogent, and a general bad idea (way to prevent other criminals from surrendering or accepting your surrenders)
    And I'm sorry, but I don't believe this goody-good argument that all of Kabuto's threats and testiments to rigging the trial (fresh after murdering someone) don't mean anything at all. Come on now. I'm reading posts that would say to let him have a trial, KNOWING that he will get away with it (and make Hinjo lose face in the process), and that anything else would be evil. What you're saying is that there's no way to capture or incriminate this villain. If a DM wrote that scenario into my D&D game, I might be looking for a new group.
    1) Knowing he will get away with it? Really. Prove it. You have Kabuto's boasts, and as we can clearly see, his claims are not proof, nor absolute. How can you know if you haven't tried. If you give up and resort to evil without trying, then evil truly does win
    2) Part of being good is that it is hard and challenging, that is why evil is popular its easy

    While V's methods were crude, the results in my opinion have more likely spared many more deaths and injustices (and I say V is just as qualified as anyone to judge; after all, what places a judge above other mortals?).
    1) A fair trial defines execution, not just a judge. Through if the judge is an angel....
    2) Preventing deaths by commiting evil is not a solution, its simply an evasion of responsibility
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Meh trolling each other is fun and all but I have to go to bed.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryusacerdos View Post
    Meh trolling each other is fun and all but I have to go to bed.
    this isn't trolling
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