Results 391 to 420 of 958
-
2008-09-22, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Oh gods i wish i knew
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
your talking about her actions, i'm talking about the way she goes about her actions, which is where the law chaos thing comes into play. Studious, careful, intellegent, V tends to handle problems in a very meticulous manner, even when she is doing crazythings. Even her attacks on Belkar were very well planned out and thought through, part of a complicated and elaberate plan. She occassionally loses her temper, but her way of handling things is lawful
from
EE
-
2008-09-22, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
- Location
- Paducah, Kentucky
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
A "really really good society" wouldn't think so, though, and neither do you, since you already qualified ending the life of someone who cannot resist it as an inarguably evil act regardless of circumstance, intention, or whether it is deserved or agreed upon by any persons.
Really, even if you take that tack you only raise the question of who has or doesn't have the right to arbitrate the difference between killing and murder, which is even more inconstant. Essentially, you say that V disintegrating him is murder but a group of old men beheading him for the exact same reasons is just killing. All that really does is posit that there are poeple who reserve the right to decide what is good and what is evil, or at least circumstances exist where such judications can be made, which further contradicts your idea of white/black morality by making it completely moot and inconstant.
Also:
Elitist; noun; consciousness of being a person or belonging to a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence
Technically, we agree completely: why pretend to be something anyone can tell you aren't? Of course, since I couldn't find it anywhere in the good ol' 11th Edition, I couldn't look up 'elitest,' so perhaps I am just in need of more reliable reference and the descriptor fits you perfectly. But I know which way to bet.Glorious Chaiman Kaga avatar by the impeccable Kalirush!
-
2008-09-22, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
- Location
- Colorado
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
If you forced him to atone and become of good alignment, he'd quickly slip back into evil once you stopped watching him. Alignment is just a reflection of your actions, not the cause of them.
And V's actions here, while borderline evil/chaotic, was simply the right thing to do. The way to see it, is that he didn't really surrender, he just took advantage of Elan's morals to survive another day and backstab him later. Not unlike a villain who drops his weapon only to pick it back up when the hero looks away.
-
2008-09-22, 11:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Midwest U.S.
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Points 1-3: The fact that I don't care means that I'm not going to debate this with you further, because D&D morality, despite your assertions to the contrary, has very little to do with what's in the texts. In practice, D&D alignments are determined by what the players and DM find appropriate; informed by the rules, yes, but hardly dictated by them. Thus, D&D morality is exactly equivalent to real-world morality, just with more obvious heroes and villains.
If you disagree with something in a text, then the rest of the text becomes suspect. If you feel it's okay to disagree with the mind control bit, then who are you to claim that I cannot disagree with the alleged "killing is always bad" part? Ergo, drop the damned BoED already.
Demands =/= disagreement, and again, calls for reform ARE NOT TREASON. They would only become treason if the reformers, upon failing to convince the king, began a campaign to bring him down.
If taking someone to trial would be dangerous or unnecessarily complicated in cases where the fate of the world is at stake, then it is fine to kill him, much like unsurrendered, unconscious enemies in the middle of the wilderness in a different campaign. You can't drag them back to civilization, because the lost Orb of Phantasmagoria is going to be used by the Black Moon cultists in a fortnight, and you can just barely get to them on time. Tying them up either invites death or them escaping, and continuing to prey on travelers.
I argue that Kubota has pointed out both danger and unnecessary complication in giving him due process of law, and thus extralegal actions are justified.
-
2008-09-22, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Oh gods i wish i knew
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
An exalted society wouldn't ever execute somebody no. However, outside the heavens, i don't think there are any exalted societies. A good society however, could execute without becoming evil, it just isn't good ether. Murder can never be commited, while execution (after a fair trial of course) is simply killing
Really, even if you take that tack you only raise the question of who has or doesn't have the right to arbitrate the difference between killing and murder, which is even more inconstant. Essentially, you say that V disintegrating him is murder but a group of old men beheading him for the exact same reasons is just killing. All that really does is posit that there are poeple who reserve the right to decide what is good and what is evil, or at least circumstances exist where such judications can be made, which further contradicts your idea of white/black morality by making it completely moot and inconstant.
Your the one being inconsistent, because your sighting claims I haven't made and jumping to conclusions to support an argument that doesn't mesh with what i'm saying
Also:
Elitist; noun; consciousness of being a person or belonging to a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence
Technically, we agree completely: why pretend to be something anyone can tell you aren't? Of course, since I couldn't find it anywhere in the good ol' 11th Edition, I couldn't look up 'elitest,' so perhaps I am just in need of more reliable reference and the descriptor fits you perfectly. But I know which way to bet.
from
EE
-
2008-09-22, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
-
2008-09-22, 11:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Hehe, V doesn't like being upstaged in his monologues. XD
Seriously, though, I was pleasantly surprised when I dully checked for a comic today, and was ready to scream with joy when I read this.
I don't get what people mean when they say Vaarsuvius did an evil act because he just disintegrated Kubota without knowing that he'd killed Therkla/was planning this or that. For that, you have to assume Vaarsuvius really DID just 'walk in and shoot', in typical Mal fashion. I think it's just as easy to assume that he walked in, heard the obviously captured villain ranting about getting away with it all into Elan's face, made the appropriate conclusions (what with Elan being Elan), and kicked Kubota into the proverbial engine, so to speak. ....What? That has GOT to become a proverb! :D
But yeah, the sole purpose of the escaping Ninja is probably to testify against Vaarsuvius on this... (Now that I think of it, Kubota probably wasn't intending to go to trial at all, and was just stalling for time, knowing that his ninja is still around and waiting him to overpower Elan.)
Frankly, I'm more interested in how Vaarsuvius managed to disintegrate Kubota through Elan, and what would've happened if he'd missed a little. XDLast edited by Kaytara; 2008-09-22 at 11:16 PM.
-
2008-09-22, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- Eugene, OR
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
This comic was interesting enough that I made an account to post in this thread.
I think there's an interesting argument here based off not only what do the D&D rules say, but what's real and what do people know as their characters?
Too often people treat Good and Evil like Bioware treated the light and darkside in the Kotor games. A solution that works for the best good would often earn darkside points. The best example I can remember here is when on Korriban you'd have some Sith Punks harassing a random dude.
You pretty much had the option to:
A: Kill all the Sith and save him
B. Join in and ill him and get a drink with the Sith.
C. Kill them all
D. Kick him around a little bit to convince the Sith you're on their side, then convince them that killing random dudes are no fun.
Only A, the second bloodest option was only lightside. Only B was completely Darkside. C would give you points for saving the dude before killing him randomly, and D would give you darkside points for deception. Despite the fact that C is the blood thirsty Crazy and D is the best outcome.
What I try to illustrate from that is an evil act in the service of good can have a much better outcome then killing all the evil dudes, or doing the noble thing. In my own RPing I saw the potential to convert those Sith later back to the light.
What V did is unethical perhaps. Killing a prisoner? Yeah, generally speaking bad. We can guess that V heard the whole argument and has spoken enough with Elan to know the whole spiele about the Civil war that would manifest from putting him on trial with out good evidence.
I'd suggest that V knows the mere act of depending on a truth spell would make the other nobles uncomfortable. Elan and the Katos are known partisans of Hinjo. They are not going to be considered neutral by Nobles who are suspicious of Hinjo. Needing truth magic on our now dead prisoner and trying to base the case on that would not sit well with other Nobles. A civil war alone is a pretty bad fate and one to avoid. Now he's dead, but in away that's deniable 100% and he's unable to plot anymore. And at worst their will be unprovable suspicion on V.
Let alone that all this time being wasted? THREATENS THE FATE OF THE WORLD.
Those caps are sadly needed. All this time wasted? Threatens the world. This side quest means our favorite Lich and his self-hating assistant have more time to End The World.
That trial would also make unstable the best NPC allies, rending the ability for them to help impotent.
I prefer the "In Pale Moonlight" ethics of this situation. For those of you unfamiliar with DS9, Sometimes you gotta do evil to win. Reality can be harsh to lawful good, and an evil act may be the only way to keep the freaking world alive, because good can't always be stopping to get cats outta trees.
-
2008-09-22, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Law vs. Chaos
The Law versus Chaos axis in Dungeons & Dragons predates Good versus Evil in the game rules. In esoteric Greyhawk setting lore, too, the precepts of Law and Chaos predate Good and Evil in the world's prehistory. Players often consider Law and Chaos less relevant to their character than Good and Evil. Confusingly, a Lawful alignment does not necessarily mean that a character obeys a region's laws.
The third edition D&D rules define law and chaos as follows:
Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.
It is more common for creatures to be neutral with regard Law/Chaos than Good/Evil. Certain extraplanar creatures, such as the numerous and powerful Modrons, are always Lawful. Conversely, Slaadi are Chaotic, representing beings of chaos. Dwarven societies are usually lawful, while Elven societies are most often chaotic.
-
2008-09-22, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
When in doubt, light something on fire.
-
2008-09-22, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- Lima - Perú
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Doesn't matter
you are my hero!Guchález
Thanks to ThreeShades for the Psychotic Elan avatar a.k.a.The Punmaker
SpoilerAll dead, they are all dead
-
2008-09-22, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Oh gods i wish i knew
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
So basically, your saying because the text doesn't support yoru argument, your going to declare it irrelevant and move on as if it hasn't' happened, in order to prove your point. So dispite the fact that murder is inherently evil (BoED chapter 1 and 2) your just gong to not counter any argument because it weakens your argument.
um, have fun i guess
If you disagree with something in a text, then the rest of the text becomes suspect. If you feel it's okay to disagree with the mind control bit, then who are you to claim that I cannot disagree with the alleged "killing is always bad" part? Ergo, drop the damned BoED already.
My personal morals are relevant, only the morals of the game, Which are defined in BoED, and so it is perfectly relevant. Just because it doesn't support your idea of vigilante justice doesn't make it irrelvant
Demands =/= disagreement, and again, calls for reform ARE NOT TREASON. They would only become treason if the reformers, upon failing to convince the king, began a campaign to bring him down.
If taking someone to trial would be dangerous or unnecessarily complicated in cases where the fate of the world is at stake, then it is fine to kill him, much like unsurrendered, unconscious enemies in the middle of the wilderness in a different campaign.
You can't drag them back to civilization, because the lost Orb of Phantasmagoria is going to be used by the Black Moon cultists in a fortnight, and you can just barely get to them on time. Tying them up either invites death or them escaping, and continuing to prey on travelers.
I argue that Kubota has pointed out both danger and unnecessary complication in giving him due process of law, and thus extralegal actions are justified.
from
EE
-
2008-09-22, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
-
2008-09-22, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Midwest U.S.
-
2008-09-22, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Location
- Georgia
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Go V!!!!!!!!
Zomg, that was the best trial I have ever seen. But the last panel was the best. I think V summed up all of our thoughts about this arc in that single sentence. Bravo.
-
2008-09-22, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Oh gods i wish i knew
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
one inconsistency doesn't make the book worthless. Also i think the spell i meant for atonements/sanctioned creatures, but i'm not sure
Logical != Lawful. Though I can see how its easy to make that mistake.
from
EE
-
2008-09-22, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
There is no way that was the 4 words. V isn't near level 20, and killing the magnificent bastard gives only a little XP and a lot of badass points.
Avatar by Arokh
-
2008-09-22, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Ryusacerdos; 2008-09-22 at 11:24 PM.
-
2008-09-22, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Oh gods i wish i knew
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
1) In D&d good and evil are objective. Right and wrong are subjective.
2) That being said, the moment you start saying "this is for the greater good" or "Ends justifies the means' your basically admitting that evil won by you narrowing your focus to not include the good option available to you, because apperently they are too difficult.
from
EE
-
2008-09-22, 11:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
-
2008-09-22, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
-
2008-09-22, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
So how about the poisons and ravages? Poisons are always evil because they cause unnecessary pain, so here are new pois-*cough*- RAVAGES that cause even more pain, but they only affect evil creatures, for you exalted types. It also basically recommends Holy Word as a substitute for Detect Evil.
And more to the point, you cannot claim that V's actions are evil because the BoED said so if you only listen to the BoED some of the time.When in doubt, light something on fire.
-
2008-09-22, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Oh gods i wish i knew
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
So how about the poisons and ravages? Poisons are always evil because they cause unnecessary pain, so here are new pois-*cough*- RAVAGES that cause even more pain, but they only affect evil creatures, for you exalted types. It also basically recommends Holy Word as a substitute for Detect Evil.
[QUOTE]
And more to the point, you cannot claim that V's actions are evil because the BoED said so if you only listen to the BoED some of the time.
I listen to it all the time. You are the one who's evading the actual issue by pointing out problems in other parts of the book.
from
EE
from
EELast edited by EvilElitest; 2008-09-22 at 11:31 PM.
-
2008-09-22, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
I think you've said here what I've been thinking, but EE has been arguing against. I think that while V's act was more chaotic than anything, it was not evil. Waiting for a trial? Lawful. Skipping the trial because you know the accused will rig the thing and end up scott-free? Chaotic and shady, but in the world of D&D I don't see it as evil. Most DM's I know would give XP for dealing with the issue...
And I'm sorry, but I don't believe this goody-good argument that all of Kabuto's threats and testiments to rigging the trial (fresh after murdering someone) don't mean anything at all. Come on now. I'm reading posts that would say to let him have a trial, KNOWING that he will get away with it (and make Hinjo lose face in the process), and that anything else would be evil. What you're saying is that there's no way to capture or incriminate this villain. If a DM wrote that scenario into my D&D game, I might be looking for a new group.
While V's methods were crude, the results in my opinion have more likely spared many more deaths and injustices (and I say V is just as qualified as anyone to judge; after all, what places a judge above other mortals?).Wanderlust
"If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all."
You are Stable, dependable, and fond of beer.
-
2008-09-22, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Oh gods i wish i knew
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Show me the source.
Right and wrong being subjective. There is no defnintion of right and wrong in any D&D book that is absolute. Right and wrong is what you think it is
from
EE
-
2008-09-22, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
- Location
- Mizunokouji Sportsland
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
That was very harsh. Not sure if the ends justify the means, but I have to give my props to V. We heard that Kabuto was going to flagrantly use the system to his benefit, and would most likely get off on the charges against him. And then what? Another ninja strike against his enemies? Perhaps V accomplished what could have happened over the course of dozens of comics.
All I can say is that I shared Elan's expression. V did what?Thanks to Ceika for my avatar of Tobimaro.
Ponytaur by the awesome Dirtytabs.Thanks!
My Dragons need your help. Please?
I now have a blog. Check it out!
-
2008-09-22, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Now there was a truly explosive runes quality strip! Way to go , it's nice to see a villain of any true scale get what was coming to them.
As far as ramifications against V in further strips, it would be completely unlike V to have not considered all aspects before eliminating a character with such a large amount of political sway. My largest fear is that V has gotten so self enamored that S/he intends to merely deal with an attempted arrest or similar problem with a truly misguided use of arcane power.
Last bit of food for thought is does a pile of dust constitute a being? I would say that the proficiency has not been fulfilled, only one of the four words was spoken to a person.
-
2008-09-22, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Oh gods i wish i knew
- Gender
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Murdering an unarmed helpless man who had already surrendered. Clearly evil, as well as being hypocritcal, cowardly, arrogent, and a general bad idea (way to prevent other criminals from surrendering or accepting your surrenders)
And I'm sorry, but I don't believe this goody-good argument that all of Kabuto's threats and testiments to rigging the trial (fresh after murdering someone) don't mean anything at all. Come on now. I'm reading posts that would say to let him have a trial, KNOWING that he will get away with it (and make Hinjo lose face in the process), and that anything else would be evil. What you're saying is that there's no way to capture or incriminate this villain. If a DM wrote that scenario into my D&D game, I might be looking for a new group.
2) Part of being good is that it is hard and challenging, that is why evil is popular its easy
While V's methods were crude, the results in my opinion have more likely spared many more deaths and injustices (and I say V is just as qualified as anyone to judge; after all, what places a judge above other mortals?).
2) Preventing deaths by commiting evil is not a solution, its simply an evasion of responsibility
from
EE
-
2008-09-22, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Meh trolling each other is fun and all but I have to go to bed.
-
2008-09-22, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Oh gods i wish i knew
- Gender