OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

[LurkerInPlayground]

So is Indiana Jones evil? He had the drop on the swordman in RotLA, but shot him down in cold blood. Sure the victim was armed, but a sword vs. a revolver is like being unarmed, right?
Yet that scene received the loudest cheers in the theater.
Maybe we should just relax?

I'd reasonably justify that as self-defense. Since it's rather clear that Jones was being threatened with a weapon, and his would-be assailant was clearly making his intentions to make a go at him.

I think this is why the whole Han Solo and Greedo remix pisses people off. It too, was justifiable under the circumstances. Greedo was making it clear that Han was not going to live if he could help it.

And all because George Lucas wants to protect the sensibility of our children?
Weak.

[Blue_C.]

That was pretty cool. Jaw-dropping and a bit worrisome, but cool too.

As far as the discussion at hand,

The act was evil. Whether or not it was murder, justifiable homocide, or any other synonym for "the blasty end went into the bad guy, and -POOF-, no bad guy," killing a surrendered prisoner is clearly evil. But V is not a Paladin, so big whoo. V isn't even good aligned, as we saw in the dirt farmer side-story (I'm sure there were other examples, but that for me was the clearest). He's not going to have a minute's trouble going into trance over Kabuto.

Further, V is not an Azurite, so he doesn't care a whit about the noble class or the long term stability of that society, which Elan may have picked up as Hinjo's companion. And thanks to Miko and Lord Shojo, V probably does not have the healthiest respect for the Azure City legal system.

I don't think good or evil really came into V's thinking during this scene. Kabuto annoyed him, promised to be of further annoyance, so he died. Countless adventurers make that same decision everyday.

None of that bothers be, as far as pixels on the screen go. That bothers me is that V is falling into a bad set of habits. There's a saying that "when all you have is a hammer, every problem in the world begins to look like a nail." That's exactly what happened here. I guess he's been in that mode for a while, since the Battle of Azure City really, but now its starting to cost the order as much as Belkar's lust for violence ever did.

[LurkerInPlayground]

That was pretty cool. Jaw-dropping and a bit worrisome, but cool too.

As far as the discussion at hand,

The act was evil. Whether or not it was murder, justifiable homocide, or any other synonym for "the blasty end went into the bad guy, and -POOF-, no bad guy," killing a surrendered prisoner is clearly evil. But V is not a Paladin, so big whoo. V isn't even good aligned, as we saw in the dirt farmer side-story (I'm sure there were other examples, but that for me was the clearest). He's not going to have a minute's trouble going into trance over Kabuto.

Further, V is not an Azurite, so he doesn't care a whit about the noble class or the long term stability of that society, which Elan may have picked up as Hinjo's companion. And thanks to Miko and Lord Shojo, V probably does not have the healthiest respect for the Azure City legal system.

I don't think good or evil really came into V's thinking during this scene. Kabuto annoyed him, promised to be of further annoyance, so he died. Countless adventurers make that same decision everyday.

None of that bothers be, as far as pixels on the screen go. That bothers me is that V is falling into a bad set of habits. There's a saying that "when all you have is a hammer, every problem in the world begins to look like a nail." That's exactly what happened here. I guess he's been in that mode for a while, since the Battle of Azure City really, but now its starting to cost the order as much as Belkar's lust for violence ever did.

You do have something of a point here. V just comes off as being extremely cranky at the moment and simply doesn't have the usual patience of catering to what the party wants to do.

I think V already knew before that simply hammering every nail wasn't the most efficient solution, and was more or less content that Roy or others would more or less achieve a satisfactory end, at little cost to V. Hence V's "neutrality."

At this point though, I think V is just feeling like things aren't moving along quickly enough, since V just wants to skip to the part where V rescues Haley and Roy.

Personally, I don't begrudge V's decision to blast Kabuto. Kabuto was expecting to be invincible no matter what, and simply pissed off a person who wasn't going to take it anymore.

[Stupendous_Man]

Disgusting. Cold blooded murder cannot be justified.

Brute force seems to have triumped over genius in this case. Unacceptable.

A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords at dawn.

[RDubyoo]

Seeing a lot of doubt over V's actions here. Well, let me just say that if there's one hard lesson I've learned in life, it's that doing the right thing isn't always the right thing. Without going into detail, there was an incident in my life where if I had obeyed the law and done what I was supposed to would've resulted in extremely negative consequences for myself and no positive benefits for anyone. I managed to work my out of that situation by going against the law, and in so doing probably saved my life.

Why exactly should I try to be a saint if it's only going to hurt me and achieve nothing good? Should I do it just for the sense of being morally superior to everyone else? Well, that might feel good, but it will hardly help me to survive.

As another example, what do you say to a man who kills in self-defense and is convicted of murdering his attacker, or of, at the very least, violating his civil rights? In Britain, it happens more often than you think. So if the law punishes you for doing the right thing and looking out for your own self-interest, why should you follow the law? Maybe instead of calling the cops and telling them you killed a burglar, you should gather up his body, put it in a sack with some weights, and toss it into a lake. Your chances of staying out of prison might be a lot better.

So, I don't think we should be so hard on V. He did what he had to do, and I don't begrudge him that.

[Flashlight]

Epic Win. Vaarsuvius 4 President.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Seeing a lot of doubt over V's actions here. Well, let me just say that if there's one hard lesson I've learned in life, it's that doing the right thing isn't always the right thing. Without going into detail, there was an incident in my life where if I had obeyed the law and done what I was supposed to would've resulted in extremely negative consequences for myself and no positive benefits for anyone. I managed to work my out of that situation by going against the law, and in so doing probably saved my life.

Why exactly should I try to be a saint if it's only going to hurt me and achieve nothing good? Should I do it just for the sense of being morally superior to everyone else? Well, that might feel good, but it will hardly help me to survive.

As another example, what do you say to a man who kills in self-defense and is convicted of murdering his attacker, or of, at the very least, violating his civil rights? In Britain, it happens more often than you think. So if the law punishes you for doing the right thing and looking out for your own self-interest, why should you follow the law?

That's why, I think, we shouldn't be so hard on V. He did what he had to do, and I don't begrudge him that.

It should probably be pointed out that V overheard the one-gloat-too-many.

Yeah, I think I would have done the same in V's shoes.

[Superglucose]

Excellent! I love it when, for all their bragging and preperations, a simple, well-placed spell thrashes the bad guy. Especially since this was the attitude most of my characters had, and it amused my GMs to no end.

[Niley]

Well, this strip just confirmed my theory about Kubota's fate

[Lord Vukodlak]

AWESOME!,

It was a very logical step from V's view of thinking. Kubota was clearly evil and a threat to the entire fleet. He had confessed to his guilt but professed how they could never prove it in court and how he'd get off and make Hinjo look like a fool.

Really Elan being Chaotic Good wouldn't need anything more then what he's already seen first hand to execute Kubota for his crimes and keep in step with his alignment. A surrender isn't a surrender if the guy basically confesses how he'll stab your friends in the back later.

A part of being an good aligned adventurer or super hero from the comics. is taking the law into your own hands when the law fails.

[spectralphoenix]

I listen to it all the time. You are the one who's evading the actual issue by pointing out problems in other parts of the book.
from
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What am I evading? You say that V's actions are evil because the BoED says murder is always evil, but you choose to ignore other things from the exact same "always evil" list because you think their inclusion is stupid. In other words, you're basing the entire argument off of your subjective interpretation of which parts of that list should be on there and which shouldn't.

[Falxo]

Okay, I have been reading OotS and the forums for a long time now, but I never registered. Seeing this strip, I had to come and post a comment.

V has always been my favourite member of the Order, and probably my favourite character altogether. I love the character development he had had since strip 500. And he just reached a new level in my admiration... I sure did not see that coming.

Before Kubota poisoned Therkla, I only saw him as a petty villain who was a mere nuisance to the good guys and would be dealt with sooner or later ; but the last few strips made me actually respect him, and I began to see him as a Magnificent Bastard... so I really thought he was here to stay... and, well, no

V, I love you ! And Giant, thank you for all these great characters and for still being able to write an excellent story after nearly 600 strips !

[Shikton]

This was awesome. Pure win. "Now can we PLEASE resume to saving the world?" =D One step closer to OOTS reuniting I hope, been longing for that for a while.

[akumadaimyo]

BWA HA HA HA. Awesome. So much for the Kubota fans huh? Man Rich knows how to kick right in the gonads doesn't he?

[Worldmaker]

I'm just glad that the overly-long, overly-drawn-out distraction from the primary plot can now be safely left behind where it belongs and the storylne can be advanced.

Because... jeez... boring much lately?

[Amiria]

Awesome. That's how a highlevel wizard solves a problem. But I worry for V, the quick and easy way leads to ... the Dark Side.

Btw, I like the correct thin green ray of the Disintegrate spell. But opposed to V, my hand is also engulfed in smoky green magic stuff. Guess what spell I just cast ...

[spectralphoenix]

But i'm not advocating meekness, i'm advocating using evidence properly. This book defines moral implications of actions, weather i like it or not, its word is law

No, its word is law when it suits your argument. And it's 3.0 anyway.

3) Yes it is hypcritical, because you are claiming to support the cause of good and fight evil, but when things get rough, you give in and resort to the very methods your fight against. THat is hypocrisy. It is cowardly because murdering an unarmed helpless prisoner is always cowardly. And you can't use "Saved the world" as an excuse to be evil, i imagine many villain use that as a moral shield. The trial wouldn't be a waste of time, because they are trying an evil person for a crime in order to stop him. The only reason why this murder happened is because its easier, which isn't an excuse when it comes to human life

I'm sorry, can you give me a comic number where V claimed to support the cause of Good? And I'm reasonably certain that V wouldn't have been hiding under his/her bed if Kubota had been armed and charging. Cowardice is rhetoric thrown around too often these days.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the murder happened to save the hundreds of lives that would be lost if Kubota used his trial to incite a civil war. And I think it was pretty well established that Kubota would have walked.

There are exalted people. I said i don't think there are any exalted society, not that they are impossible. Heaven is entirely exalted, so it effectively is an exalted society. Exalted people wouldn't execute a man, while good people could get away with that

THe difference here is that V wasn't killing him out of revenge, he was killing him because, y'know, he was going to deliberately cause the deaths of innocents, and Hinjo and Elan wouldn't stop Kubota.

Depends on the system. A trial where actual beings of law and good are overseeing to the best of their ablity is certainly going to be as fair as you can get

Kubota mentioned he was detect-proof.

Um, except that a fair trial would be one where the defendant gets a chance to prove his innocence, and the accusers will get the chance to prove his guilt, without corruption involved. Considering weh ave paladins and angels around, this is possible. Why wouldn't Kubato get a fair trial? Considering he actually is guilty, the purpose the trial is not to prove his guilt but to provide a proper punishment. IF it is execution, then it isn't an evil act, just a neutral one

Except that as mentioned, he's detect-proof. It's his word against the Katos' and Elan's, all of whom are directly associated with his chief rivals. And I'm pretty sure whatever other nobles are with the fleet get to be involved, and a lot of them are Kubota fans. Kubota was confident he would be found not guilty and he knows the proceedings better than anyone.

And really, we're looking at multiple counts of attempted regicide, murder, conspiring with fiends, and assorted other charges.

this is not real life, trials are nearly as vague because you have you know, magic and holy beings to assist.

And again, protections from them also exist.

[Frozen_Northman]

Clearly, after confessing to the full extent of his villainous crimes, Lord Kubota opted for honorable suicide. For indeed, annoying a powerful wizard who prepared Disintegrate and Gust of Wind that morning is a very straightforward means of committing suicide.

Murder was in fact a fairly uncommon event in Ankh-Morpork, but there were a lot of suicides. Walking in the night-time alleyways of The Shades was suicide. Asking for a short in a dwarf bar was suicide. Saying "Got rocks in your head?" to a troll was suicide. You could commit suicide very easily, if you weren't careful.
--Terry Pratchett, Men At Arms

[turkishproverb]

lol. Loved it. Priceless moment.

[Glorfindel]

V owns again! Back to business ...

[fractal]

I admit I haven't had a chance to read all 16 pages yet, but am I the only one whose reaction was, "Oh no! A small fortune in magical armor-increasing items!"

Really, Vaarsuvius, what a waste!

Edit: Ah, from page 6:

Noooo! All that expensive magical armor and defensive items! :(

[Psychomancer]

Thank-you V, for doing the distasteful but necessary things that hold the world together. You have done those of us in the Neutral Jerk alignment proud.

[Niknokitueu]

Woo-Hoo! V for the Win!

part of being an good aligned adventurer or super hero from the comics. is taking the law into your own hands when the law fails.

Heh. It has long been established that Elan is too meekly good for his own good.

Now, V has never been 'good' (IMO V has always come across as LN)

Given that Kubota had not only confessed his crimes, but had also gloated about how he would never be convicted (and hence the 'law of state' had failed), then I can see V's actions as fully justified.

Having said that, Elan should still have skewered Kubota - Kubota confessed to lots of crimes, Elan saw him effectively kill in cold blood, yadda yadda. Chaotic good is all about doing good irrespective of the rule of law.

Heck, even Roy, OotS's paragon of law and goodness would have killed Kubota after that outburst (but at least he would have felt sorry that he had been forced to do so...).

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[bue52]

Is it just me or does every seem to think that lawful= Always follows the law, and Chaotic= Haha I do random stuff with morality/amorality/immorality in mind.
Personally, I loved V for doing that, though I would not say that is the proper way to do things, and well, Elan is somewhat of a stupid good person, too nice but I like him that way. I am however, worried about V's mental state, no matter how annoyed V is, surely V knows about the repercussions involved. And I pity Elan, he is going to have a hard time too.

[StClair]

Holy *bleep*.

[Spyros_Baldr]

It's never struck me that V ever particularly cared for the laws of any land, and like it's been said before--he's a pragmatist. To judge him as anything else would be a waste of words.

Is what he did right/wrong/bad/good? To V, it doesn't matter. There are more important things to be worrying about right now than the actions he's taken to get back to the main goal. V's actions are more like so: "Hey, we have other things to be doing than worrying about the life of a crooked noble with a hubris complex. I killed him; we have a Lich and his goblin friend to take care of. Maybe later, after it's settled, you can try me in your court system (which I hardly care for)." than he does like so: "What I did was right and good for me--and not just me, but for us all--and for that, I am above the law. And now onto more important matters, like the Lich and his goblin friend.".

(We can, and do, all agree, though, that what V did was hella awesome. )

[Super_slash2]

The comic was good, I just didn't see it as a resounding win for Varsuuvius - it seemed kind-of anti-climatic....

I do not play D&D. So, my knowledge would be negligible. But I think someone mentioned spells like Raise Dead, Speak With Dead and so on. If Kubota is planning to lie through the detection, surely the other methods would still work. Doesn't Sense Motive help? Old-Fashioned Detective Work (lack of poison on Therkla's person, why the heck Kubota carries this with him everywhere, motive), Oracles/Scrying, Summon Qarr and what-not. Interrogating the accused doesn't seem like the sort-of thing that would get the most convictions anyway. The arguments justifying murder don't really stick because there were alternate things you could do between now and then. Even I WANTED to see Kubota punished but we're not animals, we should be able to draw the line between what we want and what we should do.

Which is why what Varsuuvius did, although well-deserved, cannot be justified in that way - it assumes that you can do absolutely nothing to stop him - eliminate his ninja hoards(I mean they have to be somewhere on the boats), guard The Katos personally or even cripple but not kill Kubota. He did none of that. It's not that he had no other option, he didn't choose any other option.

[Llelldorin]

Personally, I don't begrudge V's decision to blast Kabuto. Kabuto was expecting to be invincible no matter what, and simply pissed off a person who wasn't going to take it anymore.

This is exactly right. V's act was clearly evil, but then V isn't good. (As was mentioned above in the thread, remember the dirt farmer episode.) If I had to classify V, I'd go with LN, holding to a personal code based on gaining knowledge and protecting friends (and, by extension, the universe) with that knowledge.

Good PCs often get into trouble by assuming that their opponents must by definition be evil. It would seem that Kubota made the villain equivalent of that mistake--he assumed that his opponents must necessarily be good. Unfortunately for him, V isn't, quite. Ticking off a powerful ?N character like V is a very, very bad idea, because they're capable of profoundly evil acts if they deem it necessary.

Kubota's entire schtik in the strip has been using the essential goodness of the Azurite Paladins against them. It works against Elan too--even under the most intense provocation, Elan can't bring himself to do more than mildly strike a prisoner. Even if Kubota saw V coming, he probably assumed (s)he was just one more good character. Bad assumption.

[Krouv]

Wooo! V has done exactly what I've been waiting for: got rid of an obstacle to the main plot. Now the Belkar has stopped being an irritating liability, and Kubota is no more, there will be considerably less set-backs, and we can focus on the main plot again.
Plus, this is character development-tastic. V has acted in extreme pragmatism, and did what had to be done. No more "heros are good so they must let the villain escape" annoyance. I'm really looking forward to see the response of Elan and the rest of the good characters. Also, as I always thought, it seems that in comic number 339 V was seriously considering just executing the Linear Guild, and not merely "representing the halfling's viewpoint".

[tiercel]

V.

Is.

Awesome.

Sure, it's been said, but it's worth saying again. Nice to see V nip this in the bud (and, to an extent, speak a bit on behalf of all of us readers who are saying, yes, this political intrigue is all a great plot and all, but when are we getting the gang back together, including Roy?).

Next up: just how Evil-with-a-capital-E is this? Let the alignment discussions begin. (Oh wait, they already have.)