OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

[Mercenary Pen]

Ultimate example of

THE WIZARD DID IT!

[Pvednes]

Nice to see a rational response. Go V!

[pjackson]

If I am not mistaken, D&D rules say that killing something/someone evil is if not a good act, then a neutral act.

You are mistaken.
Killing something/someone evil is generally neutral or evil depending on the circumstances.
If they are a prisoner it is an evil act.
It might possibly be a good act if done to protect someone else at a cost to yourself and there was no less evil alternative.

[Daibhid C]

Of course it's wrong. This is going to spark a civil war among the remnants of Azure City. That doesn't mean it wasn't awesome and well overdue, but this is going to cause no end of trouble.

Of course, there'd be no end of trouble with him alive, but this is going to be more immediate.

But that's the wrong way round for the prophecy, surely? V just did the wrong thing (as you say) for the right reasons (saving the world).

[Threeshades]

You are mistaken.
Killing something/someone evil is generally neutral or evil depending on the circumstances.
If they are a prisoner it is an evil act.
It might possibly be a good act if done to protect someone else at a cost to yourself and there was no less evil alternative.

Kubota was still in a position where he was potentially harmful. V was merely preventing him from winning the trial and go on with his magnificent bastardry which we all know would have happened if he wa left alive.

[Werewindlefr]

You are mistaken.
Killing something/someone evil is generally neutral or evil depending on the circumstances.
If they are a prisoner it is an evil act.
It might possibly be a good act if done to protect someone else at a cost to yourself and there was no less evil alternative.

Adventurers of any alignment, even paladins from OOTS-world, do this kind of things on a regular basis. If they didn't, Redcloak wouldn't be Xykon's ally, for instance.
The only difference is that Kubota had surrendered - but in truth, only a lawful person would consider this as having surrendered, a person who would give more importance to the words than their meaning; Kubota basically admitted himself he had no intention of stopping and that surrending was just part of another evil scheme.

The best part, though, is that with all this preparing, Kubota was foolish enough to forget to protect himself against direct actions to kill him. It is super funny to see him stating how much he prepared a counter for every possible actions the PCs or Therkla could take against him, in a fashion only a super-paranoid guy could really achieve. Every action, except the most simple.

[Firelock_ny]

Hilarious and appropriate… yet mildly unsatisfying. Too clean and quick an end for the karmic backlog that Villain worked up.

Remember when V was about to be hung
by the bandits, and the threat s/he made?

Kubuto has an incomplete goal that he's
been working towards his entire life. He
was killed unexpectedly in a manner he
would see as foul and treacherous (even
though he'd happily do it to someone
else).

Expect that ship, or the entire fleet,
to be haunted by the ghost of a
cunning, manipulative, thoroughly
evil nobleman.

Now, here's a thought about V:
s/he has been without trance for
ages now. S/he just finished an
epic throw-lots-of-spells battle
with a greater demon...and still
had Disintigrate and Gust of
Wind left over. There's no way
a Wizard playing by the usual
rules would have that many
spell slots still full after all this
time. Therefore, V has found
a way to recharge. You'd think
s/he'd mention this to Durkon
and Elan, at least in a passing
"See what power I have wrought"
type of moment - but s/he hasn't.

Whatever V figured out, s/he wants
to keep secret. What if s/he want
to keep it secret because s/he knows
that Durkon, Elan, and maybe even
V hirself would look at this recharge
method and go, "Ick, that's nastily
wrong, you shouldn't do it"?

--
Walt

[Iranon]

I think we haven't really seen anything new in regards to V's mindset and/or alignment. A little power-happy, and willing to do whatever she thinks is best with blatant disregard for anyone elses moral considerations. V probably has 'uninterested in such trivialities' on his character sheet under alignment.
Just looking at morality rather than demeanor, I would have pegged V at CN for a long time.

While V could easily turn into a villain, there is no need to be Evil for this. V displays little in the way of outright malice, but the combination of power and indifference is chilling.

About the practical side: This will cause problems for Hinjo, because there's no way to talk away the fact that his most powerful allies killed a noble in cold blood. Even if everyone of consequence doesn't blame him directly, he will have a hard time justifying a continued alliance with the OotS.



EDIT: Also, I think his actions are more relevant in the light of what she did to Elan. Executing a powerful threat without due process is what adventurers do, of all alignments.
Doing so while they are under the 'care' of a fellow party member and, judging V's willingness to bail Elan out before, friend seems significant though.

[Teiran]

While Kubota was a bastard and deserved it there's still due process to consider.

Why is there due process to consider? V just got finished fighting a giant demon summoned by Kubota's servant, and had just heard the evil mastermind speech about how Kubota commited murder and is going to blame it all the OotS. He acted to defend himself and his friends. It was an evil act of self defense, but still self defense.

The juristiction of a country which no longer exists, that he was not inside at the time, and to which he was never a citizen hardly applies. A non-existant state can hardly put someone on trial for breaking laws outside what would have traditionally been considered it's boundrys and have it NOT be a farce. That why the original trial was such a shame after all.

That's what Therkla was trying to get across to Kubota. Azure city no longer exists. The entire power struggle was meaningless. And the sheer desprate plea V makes that they return to dealing with important things like their friends and saving the world at the end of the comic wraps that sentiment up nicely.

[Dane_Bramage]

bloody awesome!

that's all i got to say about it...

bloody awesome.

[Firelock_ny]

Hilarious and appropriate… yet mildly unsatisfying. Too clean and quick an end for the karmic backlog that Villain worked up.

Remember when V was about to be hung
by the bandits, and the threat s/he made?

Kubuto has an incomplete goal that he's
been working towards his entire life. He
was killed unexpectedly in a manner he
would see as foul and treacherous (even
though he'd happily do it to someone
else).

Expect that ship, or the entire fleet,
to be haunted by the ghost of a
cunning, manipulative, thoroughly
evil nobleman.

Now, here's a thought about V:
s/he has been without trance for
ages now. S/he just finished an
epic throw-lots-of-spells battle
with a greater demon...and still
had Disintigrate and Gust of
Wind left over. There's no way
a Wizard playing by the usual
rules would have that many
spell slots still full after all this
time. Therefore, V has found
a way to recharge. You'd think
s/he'd mention this to Durkon
and Elan, at least in a passing
"See what power I have wrought"
type of moment - but s/he hasn't.

Whatever V figured out, s/he wants
to keep secret. What if s/he want
to keep it secret because s/he knows
that Durkon, Elan, and maybe even
V hirself would look at this recharge
method and go, "Ick, that's nastily
wrong, you shouldn't do it"?

--
Walt

[Kanashimi]

Go V!!!!! About fricking time. I was personally hoping that Elan would be the one to do it, but I"m just as happy that it was V.

[PaulTheSamurai]

Note to self... dont piss off V.

[ringsnake]

Thank you Rich! I was getting REALLY tired of Kubota story thread, and I've been needing my Roy/Haley vs. Belkar fix months ago. Please let this be the start of getting the group back together.

As to V's irrefutably evil action.

"Yes my sexually ambivalent elven friend. Strike him down and join the dark side!"

[Return of Lanky]

You are mistaken.
Killing something/someone evil is generally neutral or evil depending on the circumstances.
If they are a prisoner it is an evil act.
It might possibly be a good act if done to protect someone else at a cost to yourself and there was no less evil alternative.

Bwuh?

Killing can easily be Good. If an Orc surrenders to a my ranger then flat-out admits that he can escape prison and go back to pillaging the countryside, how is it an EVIL act to kill him? Because his hands are bound by rope?

Good and Evil are purposes. Good is not pacifism. Good is not kindness. Good is not polite. Good is not even remotely Lawful. Good is what is best for the innocent.

In some cases, what is best for the innocent is the death of one who is guilty. Regardless of the circumstances. The only difference between what V did and a lawfully sentenced hanging is the courts, not whether the act was Good or Evil. Just because a bunch of stuffy guys in robes give the okay, murdering a prisoner doesn't become okay. By your logic, a death sentence is just murdering a prisoner and thus, an evil act.

Doesn't fit, does it?

[Scarblade]

About the practical side: This will cause problems for Hinjo, because there's no way to talk away the fact that his most powerful allies killed a noble in cold blood. Even if everyone of consequence doesn't blame him directly, he will have a hard time justifying a continued alliance with the OotS.

But no one knows that V killed him, and V maked sure that the remains can't be found.
For all they know, Kubota might just have dissapered, or even abandoned them.

[Taekwondodo]

woot! go V, go V, it's your birthday! etc.

[Phrozt]

BAD

ASS!!

[DigoDragon]

I felt that Kubota's death was a bit anticlimatic, but it's not out of character for adventurers to do this. Sure I would have prefered that Kubota die indirectly by Elan's meddling (Example: final fight scene in "Batman Begins"), but the end result is that this is what PCs do to BBEGs. I've run D&D games for fourteen years and rarely do PCs accept surrenders when they know the villian can wiggle his way out of the usual justice system. In the real world, sure this kind of vigilattism would get V arrested and cause more problems then it's worth, but this is a fantasy story. Slaying BBEGs is the norm for justice.

And as V said-- "Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world."

Besides, here's an idea on how this can work in the OotS' favor:
The OotS in a way has been held back sailing with Hinjo because they didn't want their good paladin ally getting killed off by Kubota. With that matter now settled the OotS can take the credit and serve themselves the justice of taking a little boat ride away from the fleet to locate their missing party members and get to the main adventure. Hinjo should be able to take care of his people now that the opposition has been dusted off. Its Win-Win for everyone.

This is just my personal opinion.

[Neopolis]

Ahhh, V, this is why I love you.

[Holammer]

Why is there due process to consider? V just got finished fighting a giant demon summoned by Kubota's servant, and had just heard the evil mastermind speech about how Kubota commited murder and is going to blame it all the OotS. He acted to defend himself and his friends. It was an evil act of self defense, but still self defense.

The juristiction of a country which no longer exists, that he was not inside at the time, and to which he was never a citizen hardly applies. A non-existant state can hardly put someone on trial for breaking laws outside what would have traditionally been considered it's boundrys and have it NOT be a farce. That why the original trial was such a shame after all.

That's what Therkla was trying to get across to Kubota. Azure city no longer exists. The entire power struggle was meaningless. And the sheer desprate plea V makes that they return to dealing with important things like their friends and saving the world at the end of the comic wraps that sentiment up nicely.

Due process IS important, so important for a good aligned character that Elan, a Chaotic Good person stays his hands when he could easily kill Kubota and get away with it. In Elan's mind Kobuta in a bad person that needs to be judged and sentenced by his peers, fairly.

While a large portion of the former azurite nation is on boats, it doesn't mean they abandoned their ways and been reduced to anarchy. Had they done so, they caravan of boats would have fractured already. So they still work together as a society with laws to uphold. If anything, an important noble suddenly disappearing and a gang of outsiders being implied in having some connection to that. That might actually cause social unrest to the point where Hinjo can't cover for them. In fact, Hinjo could probably not cover for them without falling if he knew what actually transpired.

You can't kill a helpless person in self-defence. That's what we call an oxymoron. Pre-emptive strike would work better.

[Tanklin]

man, i love it!!!!

Elan did a Charlie Brown's face!!!!

priceless!!!!

[Jorrath_Zek]

Wow... I can not see how killing a prinsoner could ever be considered a "Good" Act. Acting as a Judge jury and executioner isn't exactly lawful either. I'm think V is true Neutral.

[Roderick_BR]

I was wondering when would they remember that they are adventurers, and that thet kill things
And V took the burden off Elan's shoulders. Go V!

Now, to make up a story... uh... the demon's cohort killed Kobuta, who valiantly tried to rescue Daigo and Kasumi (cough) yeah.

Finally: Looks like Kubota's class features didn't include a protection from desintegrate (or protection from pissed off wizards).

Something I wanted to mention in the previous one: Nice touch of having Elan beat Kubota by threatening to sink the boat, since Kubota was loaded with protection itens. Thinking outside the box for the win.

[Ikialev]

...that was unpredictable.

Also, 20 pages. wut. Why do people spam so much when someone die? D:

[pjackson]

Is it just me or does the OOTS team seem to be unbalanced? It seems that V is the engine of destruction and the rest of the characters are becoming bystanders that delay the bad guys while V charges up. V wipes out dragons, giant devils, and evil class "b" lords on his/her own while the other characters fight goblins, zombies, thieves, etc.

That is they way D&D works (before 4.0 at least)
High level full spell casters are more powerful than other classes.
The three most powerful classes are wizard, cleric, and druid, with sorcerer's a little way behind.
Actually V as an evoker is fairly weak for a wizard.
Durkon is too interested in helping others to show more than glimpses of the full power of a cleric, but Redcloak has shown more.

It is also a large plot point that Eugene thinks that fighter's are much weaker than wizards and his views have a basis in truth.

Of course Elan had already defeated Kubota and Durkan helped by cursing the giant devil.

[pjackson]

If it were on the books that being Evil is a crime, Shojo wouldn't have needed to fake senility to deal with Evil nobles, he could've just sent the paladins to use Detect Evil on everybody and kill the ones who set it off. It's acceptable as far as Lawful Good alignment goes to kill somebody because they're Evil, without any knowledge of their specific Evil acts, but in most jurisdictions such summary executions would still be legally considered murder.

Detect Evil is not infalliable - as when Miko detected Roy as evil - so killing someone just because they detect as evil is not acceptable to most versions of Lawful Good - it is closer to Lawful Neutral.

[Werekat]

Goodness. Only a True Neutral Wizard half-dead from exhaustion could have forced me into enough sympathy to finally register on these boards, though there have been moments when I was very much tempted previously.

This being my favorite class and alignment, and having played my share of dead tired wizards in a similar state of mind - I have to say that this is very consistent.

There does come a time when you do not have extra moral (or any other kind, in fact) fiber to spare. And heavens help anyone who gets in the way then. In the discussion of Erfworld Drascin quoted Pratchett as saying that "if you find yourself at the mercy of a man, pray he's an evil man, because the good one will simply kill you to end things quickly." Same goes for tired. If you have a tired enemy, he or she will just kill you to get it over with.

Alternately, of course, they may simply not notice you, being too tired, but if they do - expect no mercy.

Being Neutral just imposes a different line you will not cross even in this wretched state. Being a Wizard puts things in perspective nicely.

Extremely well done. And I hope s/he recovers soon. Hell take whoever gets in the way.

[entropomorphic]

YAY!

I say clearly Chaotic Neutral for V's action... Chaotic because V was blatantly ignoring law and order for the sake of expediency, and neutral because Kubota was an evil man who intended to do evil things, and V new that. Killing a helpless prisoner is certainly not Lawful, but you could argue that it might be Good in this case because he certainly wasn't innocent, and he also didn't see his capture as being helpless. He was still scheming, and still planning to do evil things. But I think that V had Neutral, rather than Good, motives, since it seems she was mostly concerned with getting rid of a distraction to her quest to find Haley et al.

Kubota definitely wouldn't have walked... He attacked two trustworthy, well-respected nobles and held them prisoner, and confessed to trying to assassinate Hinjo in front of them.

But, I think V and Elan will not be accused of anything as long as Elan can keep his mouth shut... V could claim Kubota drowned off the rowboat, or that he was escaping, or using a magic item while restrained, or any number of other things. Who would prosecute them? Certainly not Hinjo, after finding out Kubota was indeed behind the ninja attacks.

[pjackson]

Killing can easily be Good. If an Orc surrenders to a my ranger then flat-out admits that he can escape prison and go back to pillaging the countryside, how is it an EVIL act to kill him? Because his hands are bound by rope?

Because it is evil.
You are causing unnecessary suffering to that orc. You are making it less likely that orcs will surrender in the future - leading to longer more bloody wars with more casualties on both sides. You are making it less like that orcs will accept surrenders.

He might claim he can escape prison, that does not mean he will succeed.

Good and Evil are purposes. Good is not pacifism. Good is not kindness. Good is not polite. Good is not even remotely Lawful. Good is what is best for the innocent.

Pacifism is good. Kindness is good. Politeness is good. Good can be lawful though it can also be chaotic.

Good is what is best for the innocent.

Good is what is best for everyone, innocent and guilty. Good includes forgiveness and mercy.

In some cases, what is best for the innocent is the death of one who is guilty.

True.

Regardless of the circumstances.

False.

The only difference between what V did and a lawfully sentenced hanging is the courts, not whether the act was Good or Evil. Just because a bunch of stuffy guys in robes give the okay, murdering a prisoner doesn't become okay. By your logic, a death sentence is just murdering a prisoner and thus, an evil act.

A death sentence is very likely to be an evil act, which is why Good people use it as a last resort, and only after a search for better alternatives.