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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ridureyu View Post
    Well, I can think of two reasons why.

    1. Haley's alignment isn't really in question.

    2. Haley has easier-to-expose boobs.
    Here's a few more:

    3) We never actually saw how much she stole or from whom.

    4) She lived in the generally Evil-aligned Greysky city, so the people she stole from probably deserved it, just like goblins!

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    I have to say, this is possibly the greatest page yet. Kubota has been a karma houdini from the start and it's wonderful to see him get the punishment he so richly deserved.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    So yeah, I know I'm late to the party here, but....


    Holy crap!! Did *not* see that coming.

    Not that Kubota didn't richly deserve his fate, of course, but I didn't expect V to be his executioner (muderer?) of all people. He's way more over the edge than even I realized....
    "Evil is easy, and has infinite forms." -- Pascal




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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    It's been said before, but there isn't anything anyone can do to stop V.

    I can see Hinjo trying to do something about it, I can see a big public fallout over this, but in the end, when the troops try to arrest V or Hinjo confronts him/her, V can literally disable the ENTIRE FLEET.

    Hinjo may be a Paladin, but he isn't stupid. And furthermore, even if he does try to hold V, V can quite easily pack his bags, leave, and take his ball too.

    The problem with Wizard's is V at this point (sadly) makes the entire OOTS redundant for everything. Luckly, V isn't Evil.

    But ... Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Could get interesting, but also could get lame if V suddenly becomes batman.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Holy Freakin Crap!!!!!
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    I like the new, Chaotic way of solving problems that Vaarsuvius is showing lately.

    Now, will you pardon if "Chaotic" is no longer a D&D term, I simply have not seen anything about 4th.
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro View Post
    V was protecting her friend Elan from imminent danger. Her actions were justified.
    Although there wasn't really anything V said at the time that would indicate that was her intention/motivation. It sounded far more like an act of impatience, not all that different then when she couldn't really be bothered by Lien's fate because she had, to her mind, more important things to do.

    So V was protecting her over-all goals from future inconvenience. And it could be said her actions were justified because, arguably, Kubota deserved it and getting back to saving the world is important.

    Which I guess comes to the whole two-wrongs thing. First was what V did wrong? In most places it would be unlawful to shoot a guy in handcuffs in the back of a police car who had just been arrested for, say, murder. Even if he was saying what a good lawyer he had and all the crooks who would support him and how he was certain he would get away with it.

    Of course V isn't bound by a lawful alignment or needs to adhere to the laws of Azure City. She has his own compass of right an wrong independent from such external concerns, and doesn't need to even think the laws are right or good.

    She certainly did what she thought was necessary. And she did it in a mighty impressive and funny way.

    Anyway, I definitly imagined something popping up saying "Dark side points gained" - V is looking pretty Sith. Fully Sith one might say.

    Quote Originally Posted by spectralphoenix
    Like what?
    If I had to guess what EvilElitest was referring to I'd imagine the three living witnesses to exactly what happened along with the bodies of K's employees, and a possible speak with dead for Therkla.

    No, s/he's doing it because "facing the hard way" would involve putting lots of innocents killed. And I really would like to know where you're getting this definition for "cowardly." Dictionary.com has it at "contemptibly timid," "exhibiting ignoble fear," and the like. Not "not willing to risk the lives of hundreds of people based on a sourcebook that probably isn't being used because it would be 'harder'"
    I'm not saying whether it was right or wrong, evil or good (though I will say it was pretty awesome) but where does the assumption come from that V had the "lives of hundreds of innocent people" on her mind at all?

    I like the idea of someone saying to her "Thank goodness, now no more Azurite lives will be endangered by his actions" only for V to say something like, "Then that is a plus, I was only concerned with removing this constant distraction from my primary goals which include saving the world. Maybe now I'll be able to work in peace".

    Because that's more V to me, the pragmatist with her eye on the prize, not someone aiming to solve a moral problem because the A.C. legal system is unable to (but I agree, there is nothing cowardly in V's actions).
    Last edited by Dr. Cthulwho; 2008-09-24 at 01:35 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #788
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Vaarsuvius just became my favorite OotS character EVER.

    I know people use LOL WAAAY too often on the Internet, so much so that is has become all but meaningless, but I literally laughed out loud in Chaotic Good (or even Neutral Good) glee when I read this!

    So what if I just walked home from the bar slightly (well, more than slightly) drunk, only to find this waiting for me? It is still wonderful.

    V has been contesting with Roy as my favorite character, and has just won the top spot forever.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cthulwho View Post
    Which I guess comes to the whole two-wrongs thing. First was what V did wrong? In most places it would be unlawful to shoot a guy in handcuffs in the back of a police car who had just been arrested for, say, murder. Even if he was saying what a good lawyer he had and all the crooks who would support him and how he was certain he would get away with it.

    Of course V isn't bound by a lawful alignment or needs to adhere to the laws of Azure City. She has his own compass of right an wrong independent from such external concerns, and doesn't need to even think the laws are right or good.

    She certainly did what she thought was necessary. And she did it in a mighty impressive and funny way.
    Thing is, the question of whether what Vaarsuvius did was wrong is largely independent of the question of whether V thought it was wrong. We know that V has a thick amoral streak. We know that V has been pushing to the extreme limit of V's physical endurance. V is probably in the elven equivalent of a sleep-deprived haze right now, and V wasn't a paragon of mental stability to begin with.

    V's idea of what is right and wrong may not be the one we want to use. V is not in possession of all the facts and probably isn't entirely sane at the moment.

    Anyway, I definitly imagined something popping up saying "Dark side points gained" - V is looking pretty Sith. Fully Sith one might say.
    You know, that just might be intentional, now that I think about it.

    I'm not saying whether it was right or wrong, evil or good (though I will say it was pretty awesome) but where does the assumption come from that V had the "lives of hundreds of innocent people" on her mind at all?

    I like the idea of someone saying to her "Thank goodness, now no more Azurite lives will be endangered by his actions" only for V to say something like, "Then that is a plus, I was only concerned with removing this constant distraction from my primary goals which include saving the world. Maybe now I'll be able to work in peace".
    Ooh. Good point.
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  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Varnithis View Post
    The problem with Wizard's is V at this point (sadly) makes the entire OOTS redundant for everything. Luckly, V isn't Evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dervag View Post
    We know that V has been pushing to the extreme limit of V's physical endurance. V is probably in the elven equivalent of a sleep-deprived haze right now, and V wasn't a paragon of mental stability to begin with.

    V's idea of what is right and wrong may not be the one we want to use. V is not in possession of all the facts and probably isn't entirely sane at the moment.
    These are two contradictory points that people seem to miss connecting somehow. V's going to need the rest of the Order, because the wizard is soon going to lack the stamina to successfully find his spellbook in the morning, for all of the penalties applied. Wizards are squishy, and being a pure-blooded elf makes V even squishier. V can't go off alone, because s/he's going to die from the first couple of surprise attacks. Or the wizard is going to have to shift much more to defensive mode (if s/he even has the option within s/he's repertoire of spells!), and move a lot slower, while time is running out.

    The one aspect of D&D I've always found fun is how, given the right DM, you keep getting changes in who is on the front lines, and who is on backup. Now, I know that's a strange notion to hold, but I've seen it done very satisfyingly. Going off alone on a serious quest is just as deadly for fighter and mage alike. A high-level cleric is in the least danger of all, but you can come up with something.

    Speaking of clerics, I'm not sure if this had been asked in the forums, and I've never played clerics in D&D - do they have spells that can replenish one's strength from such exhaustion? If so, I can't help but wonder why Durkon didn't relieve V's state. The elf's generally more agreeable when feeling well, and that would make V a lot easier to reason with. Being made to live out the consequences of one's choices is all well and good, but when this is the party's mage, the consequences are going to be felt all around.
    There are thousands of good reasons magic doesn't rule the world. They're called mages. - Slightly misquoted Pratchett

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    First- all of this talk of "wow, s/he committed an evil act, now s/he's changed alignment" is silly. Alignment doesn't worth that way. Alignment is about trends. One evil act does not move one's alignment. Neither does one good act. Unless, perhaps it is a hell of an act. This doesn't fit that scope. Using a spell to instantly kill every halfling in existence might be that kind of act. But even then I'm not sure. (were it killing every Goblin, that would be OK, adventurers do that all the time)

    Second, sometimes an act that would be normally evil isn't. I'm not saying this is one of those times, but here is an example-

    Suppose a child had a deadly, communicable disease. this disease was incurable, and would wipe out almost all of humanity. It normally has a 20 day latent period that has no symptoms, however the child is the .0001% of the population that wont die from the disease. She however can spread the disease. There iss no cure. No treatment. You are the security guard at the facility where the child is housed.. You see the child running in the hall ont he security monitor. When you get down there, the child has managed to squeeze through a window and is running outside toward the fence. You yell "stop!" but she does not. You cannot make it through the window. If the child gets to the fence, they could scale it and escape to the nearby city.

    Is shooting the child evil?



    If you said NO, realize you just admitted that shooting an unarmed defenseless child (who is posing no direct risk to you) in the back is not an evil act.

    Still believe in black/white morality?

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    The scariest thing is: I agree with V 100%.

    It might not have been a good thing to do, but it was the right thing to do. Someone had to stop this petty fight for power over a city they don't even control. World IS in danger and OotS, both being one of the most capable forces around and knowing what's going on, are obligated to do their best to deal with the issue at hand.

    The way I see it, the comic will take more serious tone from now on (say, like it was during the AC battle) and the plot will progress. Time for mindless bickering over who rules some real estate is over.
    Last edited by NikkTheTrick; 2008-09-24 at 02:27 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cthulwho View Post
    In most places it would be unlawful to shoot a guy in handcuffs in the back of a police car who had just been arrested for, say, murder. Even if he was saying what a good lawyer he had and all the crooks who would support him and how he was certain he would get away with it.
    It would be unlawful. That does not make it evil, and you will find many a cop who thinks that true justice requires that this lout never make it alive to the police station. [Fortunately they are generally watched too closely to actually act on that since, being human, they are often enough wrong about who deserves such direct justice and how much, but that it allows great injustice at times is obvious.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cthulwho View Post
    I like the idea of someone saying to her "Thank goodness, now no more Azurite lives will be endangered by his actions" only for V to say something like, "Then that is a plus, I was only concerned with removing this constant distraction from my primary goals which include saving the world. Maybe now I'll be able to work in peace".
    But except for this last incident, Kubota was not a distraction from V's research. In fact, V deemed it a personal bonus in that he was able to gain XP from defeating the threats. Kubota dead is clearly going to be much more of a distraction as he has to deal with the fuss of those lawful fools who are upset he didn't fill out the paperwork before eliminating the threat.
    Kubota was a distraction for everybody else, and a general menace, but for V herself, he was no real problem, and the trial would have been no distraction.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Single most awesome moment so far.

    wins the strip.

    Really, he did what I've been wanting to do myself for a while! That's what wizards are for. Problem-solving. The gust of wind in particular was a great touch.

    Of course, it'd have been better if Kubota had seen it coming or suffered a little in his defeat, but it's alright. We know there's an afterlife, and his little ghost floating around invisible, right now? Man he is going to be angry.

    "No! No! You can't do that! That's not FAIR! Hells! Can't anyone hear me?"
    Last edited by J.Gellert; 2008-09-24 at 03:49 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    I know trope qouting is horribly over done, but I couldn't help but be like
    "Haha Kabutoa, no KarmaHoudini for you!"
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Frankly, I've given up trying to guess what will happen next. Not only has Rich shown repeatedly that he's willing to zig or zag with any particular plot point, but also to zeg, zog, zug, sometimes zyg, and even occasionally zwg.
    I have my own TV show featuring local musicians performing live. YouTube page with full episodes and outtake clips here.
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by shylocxs View Post
    Wow, now I'm afraid of V.
    What, only now? I've been affraid of V since comic #20.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    Exactly. And I don't think V cares what chaos the assassination will cause.

    Reminds me of when Haley was chastised for thinking war wasn't that big a deal, just because she had a good chance of survival. (In wars, people die.)
    What chaos? Kubota's death is more likely to stablize AC then disrupt it. The biggest disrupter is now dead.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Ahhhh, the old Disintegrate/Gust of Wind combo. Bane of both arch-enemies and PC's alike since first edition! That joke just never gets old though.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Armin View Post
    Hitler's assassination would have stopped the death of millions. It doesn't matter if someone catch'ed him in a defenseless position.
    True enough. Also Stalin's, Mao's, Pol Pot's and others. In history there are tons of people whose death would have done nothing but good.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    "Vaarsuvius! What does the scouter say about your Awesome Level?"

    "My preliminary analysis indicates that three squared times ten cubed is insufficient to properly quantify it."

    "WHAT THREE SQUARED TIMES TEN CUBED!?"

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    I wonder how many alignment arguments this will bring up..

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Firkraag View Post
    Of course, it'd have been better if Kubota had seen it coming or suffered a little in his defeat, but it's alright. We know there's an afterlife, and his little ghost floating around invisible, right now? Man he is going to be angry.

    "No! No! You can't do that! That's not FAIR! Hells! Can't anyone hear me?"
    Hehe, I'd actually like to see that. :D It simply couldn't have even crossed Kubota's mind that not everybody is willing to play his little game... XD

    Also, people keep saying that Vaarsuvius could easily level the fleet if anyone tried to arrest him. I do not think that is the case. Vaarsuvius is currently low on hit points, physically and mentally exhausted, and probably doesn't have many, if any, high level spells remaining. Not to say a single Suggestion spell can't be used to wreak havoc if V wished so, but now might actually be the best opportunity to take V into custody, which might create interesting dilemmas for Hinjo since Vaarsuvius depleted his spells in the process of saving all of their butts.

    This would be interesting. Vaarsuvius might get successfully apprehended, and then Hinjo would step in and set V free for everything he owes him. Cue the Order leaving the fleet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    But think about Elan. I'm sure he'll try and cover for V. Sure, he's horrified that V zapped Kubota into oblivion, but no matter what, they're both Chaotic Good, and Elan's one of V's comrades.

    Would you try and turn your back against a friend...who's a wizard with a much higher level than you? Elan's not THAT stupid.

    Hinjo will probably let the group go free, no matter if V's guilty of the cold-blooded murder of an egotistic nobleman, because A) V's depleted his spells to save their rear ends TWICE. First in the battle of Azure City and in the fight with the colossial demon.

    and

    B) V's the most powerful force Hinjo has. Why would he go on V's bad side?

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Exalted deeds is 3.5, not 3.0. Vile Darkness is 3.0, but not superseded (its definitions of Evil are considered valid for massively multiplayer D&D: Living Greyhawk. See site FAQ).

    Murder, torture etc are not only evil in Exalted Deeds. they are Corrupt in the later source Fiendish Codex 2.

    However, referring back to ED: "the death penalty for serious crimes is widely accepted and does not qualify as evil" P11

    An Exalted judge could sentence someone to death. An Exalted executioner could carry out that punishment. Fiendish Codex 2 defines carrying out legal executions as Lawful.

    However, what V did was not an execution, could not fairly be called self defence, and Kubota was not an enemy combatant. Its not Justifiable Homicide, its not Manslaughter, its Murder.

    D&D objective alignment is only 3.0-3.5 era, I checked AD&D 2nd ed Players Handbook and it said different cultures could have different, equally valid definitions of Good and Evil, and it was subjective.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2008-09-24 at 08:56 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm not sure what you're all arguing about. Disintegrate? What Disintegrate? Elan tried, but Kubota escaped and V just happened by in time to pull Elan out of the water.

    (That's my story and I'm sticking to it. It would be Shojo's story too, methinks)

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    V!

    V! V! V! V! V! V!
    Last edited by Belkar Rocks; 2008-09-24 at 09:06 AM. Reason: One of my V's was not upper case. D'oh!

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Belkster11 View Post
    But think about Elan. I'm sure he'll try and cover for V. Sure, he's horrified that V zapped Kubota into oblivion, but no matter what, they're both Chaotic Good, and Elan's one of V's comrades.
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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Belkar Rocks View Post
    V!

    V! V! V! V! V! V!
    The ironic thing is that if Belkar were there to see this, it might make him actually like and respect V for the first time in, well, ever.

    (Which might be just the thing to get h** to realize that s/he's losing it.)
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2008-09-24 at 09:08 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

    The fact that people are actually taking Kubota's side in this can only mean that the D&D alignment system turns its players into moral absolutists.
    *Insert random Terry Pratchett quote here*

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