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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Elan will be angry and have a Haley like reaction to V's Belkar like act (they're more similar than we think, just a lot of difference in wisdom).

    Why did you do that??

    He was going to get away with it, it was a waste of time.

    You can't just do that! You're smart, if we just followed the rules and...

    For crying out loud, I'm an arcane spell caster! I bend the rules to get what I want, not follow them! *or something revealing about alignment, I'm leaning towards a chaotic neutral person with a tendency of good/great loyalty to whomever their friends are*

    ^ I pretty much hit the nail on the head.

    Or MAYBE Elan will realize he's being too freaking lawful, and this prestige class has made him think there are these set rules to life beyond just plot suspense and stuff. Maybe he'll say Thanks V, get some rest, and V will be normal again and the world will be happy and we'll all cry.

    Thanks just my take on what the next episode will be like. Unless Rich for dramatic tension goes back to another arc. I actually think that might be a good point to leave us hanging. Speculate away!
    Last edited by Impikmin; 2008-09-24 at 09:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    I think Elan will be a bit depressed that things turned out like this, but I doubt he'll be excessively angry at V. Since he's a bard he can't be lawful so this kind of solution will seem more or less right to him.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Best application of Why Dont Ya Just Shoot Him EVER.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Methinks the only person that complains might be Hinjo or some paladins. But part of me thinks nobody will care.

    I'm just happy he's dead. I'm sick of him getting away with stuff.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    I wouldn't call V's act Belkaresque. Belkar kills at random whenever he thinks he can get away with it. V's act wasn't sadistic: It was simply cold. V saw that Kubota was capable of seriously impeding their mission and that a trial ran the risk of him getting away scot-free to fight another day (not to mention the resources expended on the trial itself--and, hey, they already know he's the bad guy) and decided that killing Kubota was the most rational action. Elan might be upset, but not because V's falling down the Slippery Slope: He might instead be upset that V essentially executed a helpless prisoner, or that V has defied the basic rules of the narrative by giving a villain such an anticlimactic death.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Alternatively, he could realize that V's fulfilling the vital dramatic role of the Deus Ex Machina.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Oh that was so satisfying!

    Especially after all the endless arguments on the previous thread about taking-it-upon-yourself-to-kill-a-prisoner being a chaotic act instead of a non-good act.

    At least now we see that at least in Mr. Burlew's setting (and I agree with him), taking such an action is probably a non-good act. Elan doesn't commit the execution, as he is chaotic good, but Vaarsuvius (who's alignment has never been spelled-out [bad pun intended] but appears to me to be neutral or lawful neutral) has no qualms.

    This is consistent with previous examples of V's moral outlook, such as her ability to quite comfortably consider a "what would Belkar do?" scenario. I'm pretty confident in assessing V as neutral, and therefore not in as much alignment-status jeopardy as Elan might be, were he to (against all previously-established character examples) execute Kubota himself.

    As for the arguments that being chaotic lets you do whatever you want; it's because of people who interpreted it this way that they decided to change the alignment rules altogether in 4.0. I really hate the new alignment rules, but I can see how they would eliminate a lot of stupid, time-wasting arguments at the gaming table.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    We know V's not evil (or wasn't) because he was affected by Unholy Blight. I think we now know V's not lawful because he was perfectly fine with extrajudicial killing. I don't think this is an evil act, because he was killing a known bad guy, evil in fact, which is kind of the whole point of playing D&D.

    I vote V is True Neutral, and I also vote Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world?

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Vaarsuvius did the most logical thing. Kill the prisoner because he is too dangerous to be left alive. Some ridiculous human court system has no meaning to him. Chaotic justice triumphs over Law.

    Elan will get over it and I don't think he would rat out V
    Last edited by Kranden; 2008-09-22 at 07:49 PM.

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    confused Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    I wouldn't call V's act Belkaresque. Belkar kills at random whenever he thinks he can get away with it. V's act wasn't sadistic: It was simply cold. V saw that Kubota was capable of seriously impeding their mission and that a trial ran the risk of him getting away scot-free to fight another day (not to mention the resources expended on the trial itself--and, hey, they already know he's the bad guy) and decided that killing Kubota was the most rational action. Elan might be upset, but not because V's falling down the Slippery Slope: He might instead be upset that V essentially executed a helpless prisoner, or that V has defied the basic rules of the narrative by giving a villain such an anticlimactic death.
    Yeah, it wasn't a Belkaresque act at all. It was cold and logical, ruthless even, but not sadistic. There was no pleasure in the act.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Mewtarthio View Post
    He might instead be upset that V essentially executed a helpless prisoner
    But V can convince him that the ends justify the means.

    or that V has defied the basic rules of the narrative by giving a villain such an anticlimactic death.
    Kubota was a second-string villain, though; Xykon's the one who needs the dramatic, climactic death.

    Second string villains are generally killed by The Good Guys as an afterthought. They die, we get a short reprise on Why They Were Bad, and The Good Guys go after the Main Bad again, never to mention the second string again.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    You know, it's not all that surprising that V acted the way he/she/it did. Consider this:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html

    V is interested in the laws of the universe, but legalities do not concern him. Also, I don't think Elan will complain that much with a little convincing.


    That said, that was a very satisfying end. Don't know what will happen to Qarr, but I'm guessing he will buzz off and find someone else to help do evil acts in some other place in the world.
    Last edited by Ferrous; 2008-09-22 at 08:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Yeah, it wasn't a Belkaresque act at all. It was cold and logical, ruthless even, but not sadistic. There was no pleasure in the act.
    It did show a Belkaresque level of Wisdom, though. If the judicial process for finding Kubota guilty would have delayed them, just think about how much the judicial process for this will do. Every single noble in Azure City (Hinjo included) is going to be demanding that Vaarsuvius stand trial for this, and face some very stiff punishment (stiff enough as to seriously hamper the quest for the Gates). V could, of course, evade justice (unless possibly if Durkon aids in the arrest), but that would just escalate things to the point where the entire fleet is reduced to a pile of ash. About the only possible good that could come of this is if V is arrested and rendered incapable of casting spells, finally gets some rest, and comes to es senses.

    I'm not at all upset at seeing Kubota disintegrated, but it shouldn't have been in this way, at this time.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    I'm glad a lot of people are enjoying this thread. I only could hope to spark so much interesting conversation.

    Anyway, I do think Belkar and V are very similar, despite the wisdom scores and as you've brought up, the the way they achieve their pleasure. Belkar likes the actual act of killing. AKA, killing Xykon would be like "Hell yes! The sound of his bones shattering into a million peices was SWEET!" for Belkar, whereas for V it would go something like "At last! I have asserted my power over even an epic level sorcerer who commanded armies! FINALLY, VICTORY IS MINE! (the 4 words, maybe) I have obtained ultimate arcane power!"

    They also really do look at killing and using force/tactics to overcome obstacles.

    But guys, look at what V did. If you thought the trials were a pain in the ass, guess what happens when all Kabuto's supporters go haywire? It's going to be Shojo all over again, but this time, Kabuto is the one with the ninja death squad! Yes, it did have good intenions, just like Miko had. It was a 'chaotic' thing to do, but the actual act was more evil. I think Miko was stuck down for being too evil, because if she had been right, no one would have really said "Wow, that was really chaotic!" they would have said, wow, killing someone on your own hands instead of using these 'tainted' courts was a little evil, even if they were right!

    Something I think I've discovered is that Rich's plot really folds back onto itself with all the similarities. Not that it lessens the value of it, though.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    It did show a Belkaresque level of Wisdom, though. If the judicial process for finding Kubota guilty would have delayed them, just think about how much the judicial process for this will do. Every single noble in Azure City (Hinjo included) is going to be demanding that Vaarsuvius stand trial for this, and face some very stiff punishment (stiff enough as to seriously hamper the quest for the Gates). V could, of course, evade justice (unless possibly if Durkon aids in the arrest), but that would just escalate things to the point where the entire fleet is reduced to a pile of ash. About the only possible good that could come of this is if V is arrested and rendered incapable of casting spells, finally gets some rest, and comes to es senses.

    I'm not at all upset at seeing Kubota disintegrated, but it shouldn't have been in this way, at this time.
    He was witnessed by only Elan. They have several witnesses that say Kubota was a murderer who was attempting Regicide, and he fled in a tiny rowboat through the ocean. It's not surprising he died in the attempt.
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    wink Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    It did show a Belkaresque level of Wisdom, though. If the judicial process for finding Kubota guilty would have delayed them, just think about how much the judicial process for this will do. Every single noble in Azure City (Hinjo included) is going to be demanding that Vaarsuvius stand trial for this, and face some very stiff punishment (stiff enough as to seriously hamper the quest for the Gates). V could, of course, evade justice (unless possibly if Durkon aids in the arrest), but that would just escalate things to the point where the entire fleet is reduced to a pile of ash. About the only possible good that could come of this is if V is arrested and rendered incapable of casting spells, finally gets some rest, and comes to es senses.

    I'm not at all upset at seeing Kubota disintegrated, but it shouldn't have been in this way, at this time.
    Kubota disappeared for what all the nobility know. The only witness was Elan, it all comes down to him. It was a higher than Belkaresque WIS, V hid his act. Belkar flaunts his. I doubt Vaarsuvius will submit to the courts regardless, it would take Durkon and some rest would do V some good. Somehow, I doubt that's the climax this going crazy thing is leading up to though.
    Last edited by Kaihaku; 2008-09-22 at 08:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    It did show a Belkaresque level of Wisdom, though. If the judicial process for finding Kubota guilty would have delayed them, just think about how much the judicial process for this will do.
    I'm willing to bet that V was intelligent enough to make sure that Elan was the only witness to his/her actions.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    I don't know how much difference it would make in terms of the morality of V's act, but I wonder if he overheard Kubota's admission of guilt (maybe he was invisible on the deck while Kubota spelled it all out). If V heard him admit his guilt, then the disintegration, while neither lawful nor good, could still avoid the taint of evil.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitzclowningham View Post
    I don't know how much difference it would make in terms of the morality of V's act, but I wonder if he overheard Kubota's admission of guilt (maybe he was invisible on the deck while Kubota spelled it all out). If V heard him admit his guilt, then the disintegration, while neither lawful nor good, could still avoid the taint of evil.
    It's never evil to kill an effective mass murderer who will most likely cause more deaths in the future. (Speaking of innocents, that is, not fellow murderers.)
    Last edited by Emanick; 2008-09-22 at 09:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Thank the Twelve Gods someone offed him! He was the comic's biggest bastard currently.

    As for what happens next, Elan will be upset. It may not necessarily be anger, as everyone else has been saying. At the end of the strip, his expression was rather frightened/worried. I think he'll be more concerned about V's well being, like Durkon was when V failed to say "I told ye so", since he wouldn't normally do something of that nature.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    For right or for wrong, for good or for evil, or for better or for worse...

    ...man that was awesome!

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogastreehouse View Post
    Oh that was so satisfying!
    Indeed, but I think for different reasons for me. I just thoroughly enjoyed V's blatant application of logic and power to the situation.

    Especially after all the endless arguments on the previous thread about taking-it-upon-yourself-to-kill-a-prisoner being a chaotic act instead of a non-good act.

    At least now we see that at least in Mr. Burlew's setting (and I agree with him), taking such an action is probably a non-good act. Elan doesn't commit the execution, as he is chaotic good, but Vaarsuvius (who's alignment has never been spelled-out [bad pun intended] but appears to me to be neutral or lawful neutral) has no qualms.
    Okay, here I have to step in. Killing Evil creatures is not Evil. Elan could have killed Kubota himself and remained Good.

    What you have to realize is that alignment isn't a top-down arrangement; your alignment doesn't decide for you what you will do. Your alignment is you, it is what you do. So for Elan, being Good to him means not killing Kubota. For another Good person, it may have meant sticking a knife in his neck when no one was looking.

    What V did was quite clearly a non-Evil, Chaotic act.

    This is consistent with previous examples of V's moral outlook, such as her ability to quite comfortably consider a "what would Belkar do?" scenario. I'm pretty confident in assessing V as neutral, and therefore not in as much alignment-status jeopardy as Elan might be, were he to (against all previously-established character examples) execute Kubota himself.
    I thought V's alignment on the Good-Evil axis was decided long ago to be Neutral?
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Impikmin View Post
    Anyway, I do think Belkar and V are very similar, despite the wisdom scores and as you've brought up, the the way they achieve their pleasure.
    I don't think they're all too similar. V likes the pleasure of a good puzzle, a mental diversion, a problem to be solved, a situation to be overcome.

    Belkar likes to kill things, get lucky, kill things, eat good food, kill things, instill fear in sentient beings, kill things...

    They also really do look at killing and using force/tactics to overcome obstacles.
    Belkar would prefer to kill.

    But, as we saw with the Test of Mind, V didn't even THINK of using force to overcome that particular obstacle. V was intent on using hir mental prowess to reason around it; it was Haley who used force.

    From what I recall, V would prefer not to use force when it's not warranted; it's more 'enjoyable' to think yourself around a problem, not force your way through.

    But guys, look at what V did. If you thought the trials were a pain in the ass, guess what happens when all Kabuto's supporters go haywire?
    Kabuto doesn't have supporters; he has paid minions and nominal allies. Said allies probably don't give a rats *censored* about him, only what he could have done for them were he alive.

    Given Kabuto's failure, they'll have to take a hard look at what would be most advantageous to them. Given that Kabuto is missing, his personal guards dead on the Kato's boat (one of them from Elan's rapier), both Katos testifying that it was Kabuto who attempted to kill them (and verified by magic), and probably a bit more evidence of his misdeeds in his cabin on his junk, the best thing they can do is fall back and reassess their options.

    Yes, that means they shouldn't rock the boat.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Impikmin View Post
    Elan will be angry and have a Haley like reaction to V's Belkar like act (they're more similar than we think, just a lot of difference in wisdom).
    Eh...it's Durkon that the conscious of the group so he's more likely to be angry at V. The question for Elan and Durkon...and perhaps Hinjo...is how do you tell the crazed wizard that just stoned the colossal devil and disintegrated the major villian that he or she may have stepped out of bounds? You don't want V to be not on your side and you still need V to be on your side.
    Last edited by HamsterOfTheGod; 2008-09-23 at 12:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Why abandon Kubota's story completely? He was good at what he did, know.

    Quite clearly, he came valiantly to the aide of his fellow nobles and managed to poison their greatest assassin, only to be tragically knocked overboard with fatal wounds, where the weight of his armor promptly carried him to the bottom. Truly, a great man lost forevermore to his people.
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Hmm... V certainly cut things short, but there's still the possibility that Kubota might get a true resurrection.

    Kubota might even go along with a resurrection, considering he had no fear of going to trial... What difference would it make to him if you were using speak with dead in conjunction with zone of truth or not?
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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Kranden View Post
    Vaarsuvius did the most logical thing. Kill the prisoner because he is too dangerous to be left alive. Some ridiculous human court system has no meaning to him. Chaotic justice triumphs over Law.

    Elan will get over it and I don't think he would rat out V
    Was that what V was thinking though (that is that justice some how came into it)? He didn't say "it's better this way as he is too dangerous to live", it was more "can we get a move on, we've got more pressing concerns."

    So it seemed more like he wasn't concerned with the morality of it or doing some great justice, just like he wasn't concerned with helping Lien, more just blasting his way through time wastage.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by nightwyrm View Post
    Best application of Why Dont Ya Just Shoot Him EVER.
    My thoughts exactly!

    All James Bond badguys could learn alot from V's action.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercenary Pen View Post
    Hmm... V certainly cut things short, but there's still the possibility that Kubota might get a true resurrection.

    Kubota might even go along with a resurrection, considering he had no fear of going to trial... What difference would it make to him if you were using speak with dead in conjunction with zone of truth or not?
    If it could be cast on Kubota (an impossibility due the state of his remains), speak with dead would expose his guilt. The spell doesn't let you hold a conversation with the deceased; it merely causes a corpse to answer your questions to the best of its knowledge at the time of death. The soul isn't even involved, and there's no possibility of deceit, or motives to influence the answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager_I View Post
    Why abandon Kubota's story completely? He was good at what he did, know.

    Quite clearly, he came valiantly to the aide of his fellow nobles and managed to poison their greatest assassin, only to be tragically knocked overboard with fatal wounds, where the weight of his armor promptly carried him to the bottom. Truly, a great man lost forevermore to his people.
    Because Hinjo would smell bull****, and feel compelled to uncover the truth. Even if he's as powerless against the OotS as he was against Kubota, why invite the trouble? Just tell the truth, and fudge one tiny detail - he didn't surrender.

    As a bonus, it avoids speaking ill - more so than she deserves, at least - of Therkla, who did, after all, die as a result of going back with Elan to save the Katos.

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    Default Re: Holy.. V's bad ass, but I think I know what comes next

    "V, I'm sorry, we will have to put you in a cell"

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    Referring to Pop Yule Ashun:
    Quote Originally Posted by CyberRebirth View Post
    evisiron, that is the most awesome character idea I have ever heard of. I'm going to subscribe to this thread and look forward to updates.

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