[4th] Fourth Edition Hilarity

[quillbreaker]

3 man group. Warlord [me], Wizard, Cleric. There is a Ranger and a Fighter, but they weren't at this session.

So, the adventuring party arrived in a new town in the DM's custom world. One of the particular attractions of this town was a gladiatorial arena. We needed a place to sit and plot, and it was cheap, so we bought seats and went in.

Bets started for the next match. It was a Dragonborn against a Gnome, and odds were set strongly against the Gnome, fifty to one. I placed a 10 gold piece bet (any one can get lucky) and we went in.

So we're plotting and the DM is narrating the start of the fight, describing the gnome as pathetic and weak, and the Dragonborn as a brawny monstrosity. The whole thing was a gory bit of comic relief, a la spattered gnome, for the jaded patrons of the arena.

I stop paying attention to the plotting and look down at the battle. The combat is engaged. I feel sorry for the gnome. "Commander's Strike."
DM: "What?"
"Commander's Strike. I yell advice down to the gnome. He gets a free attack."
"You're out of range."
"No range listed on the power, so I'm assuming Line of Sight, which I have."
"The arena has a ritual to prevent magical interference."
"Not magic. Martial. Martial Weapon. I use a halberd, so really, there's not anywhere for it to be other than my hand."
"Uh... ok. *rolls* The gnome hits."
"+4 damage from my intelligence mod. I do the same thing next round."

Commander’s Strike
Warlord Attack 1
With a shout, you command an ally to attack.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: An ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack against the target
Hit: Ally’s basic attack damage + your Intelligence modifier.

And, the gnome wins. I be a smart player and do not start scheming to break the arena in half... but once again, the "activating medium" for the Warlord, shouted commands, makes for a humorous and more than slightly odd in-game effect.

[Douglas]

"You're out of range."
"No range listed on the power, so I'm assuming Line of Sight, which I have."
"The arena has a ritual to prevent magical interference."

Actually there is. Note the melee keyword in the power's description. The target of the "free" attack has to be within your melee reach.

[Colmarr]

I hate to be the one to rain on parades, but Commader's Strike is a "Melee" power, which means it only works if the target (in this case the Dragonborn) is in melee range of you.

Nice story though

EDIT: Damn these ninjas! They're everywhere

[The New Bruceski]

To be fair, that ability is THE current conflict du jour, due both to disagreeing fluff/crunch, and CusServ coming down solidly on the verbal side, while the FAQ supports melee range.

I see it as not just talking to someone, but actually interfering/pinning them and shouting "get him now!"

[quillbreaker]

Apparently if this is true or not is a issue that merits a 29 page thread. Ah, gleemax.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1052820

Someone asked Customer Service and got an answer that agrees with my interpretation:

Subject
Commander's Strike question

Discussion Thread
Response (Support Agent) 07/06/2008 02:00 PM
Brad,

Hello. You can grant the attack to an ally within your line of sight. You were reading it correctly.

I don't want to argue what should be the case (nor am I claiming customer service as a definitive source), but I will toss two things out there. First, we've been playing it as Line of Sight and I haven't thought it overpowered (I use Wolf Pack Tactics most of the time), although it is very broken in this situation. Second, if it gets house-ruled (or ruled, or whatever) as melee range, I will be shuffling it out next level. I use it to add extra melee force to a select part of the battle, and I'm not willing to run over there to do it.

[ghost_warlock]

By RAW this wouldn't might not work, but it's hilarious!

And, to be honest, I might have allowed it anyway for all the fun it could get the party into. Somewhere in that town, there's probably a mob boss who's very interested in how the gnome won against his prized dragonborn patsy. The people who run the arena are also probably interested in how this happened, too; as perhaps are the authorities as the local government probably draws income from the fights. The dragonborn (or his family if he died as a result of the fight) might be looking for revenge. The gnome may even be interesed in getting in touch with the PCs for help as the locals no doubt have him and a number of other gnomes enslaved for slaughter in just such fights.

Plot hooks galore.

[FoE]

The DM was dumb. He should have just said, "Sorry, the gnome can't hear your voice over the screams of the crowd."

But then again, this seems like the kind of set-up where the gnome was going to win anyway, in a "surprise victory." That's how this Trope works: the hero bets on the "obvious weakling" and ends up raking in a ton of cash, usually because he/she observes something no one else does (like the underdog is a master swordsman). Your DM may have allowed your cunning ploy for that reason.

Funny story, in any case.

[The New Bruceski]

I don't want to argue what should be the case (nor am I claiming customer service as a definitive source), but I will toss two things out there. First, we've been playing it as Line of Sight and I haven't thought it overpowered (I use Wolf Pack Tactics most of the time), although it is very broken in this situation. Second, if it gets house-ruled (or ruled, or whatever) as melee range, I will be shuffling it out next level. I use it to add extra melee force to a select part of the battle, and I'm not willing to run over there to do it.

If you're playing it that way, then it works that way. No need to change if everyone's fine with it.

I've caused some strife in my group talking about items that come up that are odd or contradictory. I'm usually not saying they work one way or another, I just find it fascinating to look at how things interact. I'm the kind of guy who takes things apart, partially to see how they work, partially just to explore minutae.

[BobVosh]

The DM was dumb. He should have just said, "Sorry, the gnome can't hear your voice over the screams of the crowd."

But then again, this seems like the kind of set-up where the gnome was going to win anyway, in a "surprise victory." That's how this Trope works: the hero bets on the "obvious weakling" and ends up raking in a ton of cash, usually because he/she observes something no one else does (like the underdog is a master swordsman). Your DM may have allowed your cunning ploy for that reason.

Funny story, in any case.

Actually lots of ways. "The gnome doesn't see himself as your ally."
"The gnome can't hear you"
"The gnome refuses to be commanded by you."
The guards recognize this kind of interference and come down to you. You have been slain. However, the gnome hits! +4 damage from int.

Also that is a good trope...for NPCs. For pcs it is terrible. You don't want to exceed WBL

[DarknessLord]

As people have said by RAW it doesn't work, it's a melee weapon power, which means the target has to be within range of a melee weapon, I assume the customer service rep is right about the ally.

However, this is so darn funny, chances are I'd let it work, but then inform the player that if they keep trying it, someone's gonna catch on.

Still, I don't see extending the range of this power to line of sight to be too broken, after all, you are still giving up your attack for someone else...

[pingcode20]

Actually lots of ways. "The gnome doesn't see himself as your ally."
"The gnome can't hear you"
"The gnome refuses to be commanded by you."
The guards recognize this kind of interference and come down to you. You have been slain. However, the gnome hits! +4 damage from int.

Of course, that's basically a block, improvisation wise, and it would discourage the players from trying to do anything else moderately reasonable. The whole point of Tabletop gaming is that you can do whatever you want, without worrying too much about the strict uses of abilities.

I, personally, prefer to think of situations in a more cinematic sense.

Look at it from the Gnome's perspective:

You're in an arena, fighting an impossible foe four times your height. You know you're dead, and you watch in dread as the monstrous dragonborn before you raises his sword to finish you off.

Suddenly, you hear a voice in the audience, calling out to you through the din. "He's open! Get him now!" You look at the lizard before you, and yes, yes there is an opening! You take the opportunity, and lunge at the dragonborn, his eyes widening with shock as the sword slides into his belly.

He throws you backwards, and roars with anger, but you can see it. Everyone can. He's wounded, and the seed of doubt is beginning to creep into his mind. He charges with rage, and you steel yourself for the blow. You got lucky that time, and it wouldn't last. Then, the voice again. Reflexively, you thrust your sword forwards, not daring to believe that you might actually survive. You open your eyes. The dragonborn's eyes are wide, and he staggers back, dropping his greatsword. The roar of the crowd is deafening, and slowly, your eyes see the cause. Sticking from the gladiator's chest is your sword, buried hilt deep and seeping dark blood.

You look around for the voice, but he is already gone.

---

Now tell me why that shouldn't be allowed in a high fantasy world like DnD?

[Gralamin]

Apparently if this is true or not is a issue that merits a 29 page thread. Ah, gleemax.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1052820

Someone asked Customer Service and got an answer that agrees with my interpretation:



I don't want to argue what should be the case (nor am I claiming customer service as a definitive source), but I will toss two things out there. First, we've been playing it as Line of Sight and I haven't thought it overpowered (I use Wolf Pack Tactics most of the time), although it is very broken in this situation. Second, if it gets house-ruled (or ruled, or whatever) as melee range, I will be shuffling it out next level. I use it to add extra melee force to a select part of the battle, and I'm not willing to run over there to do it.

Last time I checked, Ask Wizards was usually considered a place for official answers (As its usually answered by the actual developers or similar people), and they said it was melee. I don't think there is any more official ruling then that.

Its still a useful ability, since warlord's care more about hitting in most cases then raw damage, and when you can't do anything more useful, its a good secondary ability to let your striker hit again for more damage or similar.

[quillbreaker]

The DM was dumb. He should have just said, "Sorry, the gnome can't hear your voice over the screams of the crowd."

The DM was surprised, happens to everybody. Besides, if the power can be canceled by loud noise, the entire Warlord class just got taken down by a loudspeaker feedback loop.

But then again, this seems like the kind of set-up where the gnome was going to win anyway, in a "surprise victory." That's how this Trope works: the hero bets on the "obvious weakling" and ends up raking in a ton of cash, usually because he/she observes something no one else does (like the underdog is a master swordsman). Your DM may have allowed your cunning ploy for that reason.

I doubt that was meant to happen, based only on the difficulty we had collecting on our bets. Between 2 people we won 1500 at fourth level (someone else had a 20 gold piece bet), which is enough for a useful magic item or two.

Funny story, in any case.

Thanks. Entertainment was what I was going for here. *grin*

[Tsotha-lanti]

1:30 odds? What kind of crazy bookies give odds like that anyway? It's a bet worth dropping a few gold on no matter how unlikely, because the return is so insanely good. Your DM can blame himself for that. 1:8 odds would be big enough to draw a bunch of long-shot bets. 1:4 or 2:5 would be more realistic, especially if the gnome was capable of winning with nothing more than some commander's strike help.

[Colmarr]

As people have said by RAW it doesn't work, it's a melee weapon power, which means the target has to be within range of a melee weapon, I assume the customer service rep is right about the ally.

QFT.

The target has to be within melee distance (which does not necessarily mean adjacent). The ally can be wherever the hell he wants so long as he can somehow validly make a melee basic attack on the target from that position (eg. reach).

[leperkhaun]

I, personally, prefer to think of situations in a more cinematic sense.

Look at it from the Gnome's perspective:

You're in an arena, fighting an impossible foe four times your height. You know you're dead, and you watch in dread as the monstrous dragonborn before you raises his sword to finish you off.

Suddenly, you hear a voice in the audience, calling out to you through the din. "He's open! Get him now!" You look at the lizard before you, and yes, yes there is an opening! You take the opportunity, and lunge at the dragonborn, his eyes widening with shock as the sword slides into his belly.

He throws you backwards, and roars with anger, but you can see it. Everyone can. He's wounded, and the seed of doubt is beginning to creep into his mind. He charges with rage, and you steel yourself for the blow. You got lucky that time, and it wouldn't last. Then, the voice again. Reflexively, you thrust your sword forwards, not daring to believe that you might actually survive. You open your eyes. The dragonborn's eyes are wide, and he staggers back, dropping his greatsword. The roar of the crowd is deafening, and slowly, your eyes see the cause. Sticking from the gladiator's chest is your sword, buried hilt deep and seeping dark blood.

You look around for the voice, but he is already gone.

---

Now tell me why that shouldn't be allowed in a high fantasy world like DnD?

This is exactly the reason that GMs should bend/break rules as needed, besides its not like this was a gamebreaking event....

[Pegasos989]

Debating about the "Weapon" part aside...

Ofcourse it works.

Haven't anyone of you seen ANY boxing/arena/some similar matches?

Well... I haven't actually. But well.. In movies..

There is always the coach next to the ring shouting "Punch lower! Punch lower! Protect your face!!!"...

Well, that is exactly that power.

I don't see it all that humorous. That's how it should work.

[BobVosh]

Now tell me why that shouldn't be allowed in a high fantasy world like DnD?

I would allow it in my game, but the DM of this one obviously didn't want it. I find it hilarious.

[Ikkitosen]

Top notch! I'd allow this, and I'd think "humbug" at my DM if he didn't Unless that dragonborn was central to the plot that is!

[Charity]

To be honest, like was said above, the odds were far too long for a two horse race... and lets face it the bookie is going to be none too pleased (unless he cleaned up on bets on the favourite) and will no doubt be introducing the player to some of his knuckle dragging mates, so the winnings can be considered treasure for such an encounter, I don't see it as a big problem.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

To be honest, like was said above, the odds were far too long for a two horse race... and lets face it the bookie is going to be none too pleased (unless he cleaned up on bets on the favourite) and will no doubt be introducing the player to some of his knuckle dragging mates, so the winnings can be considered treasure for such an encounter, I don't see it as a big problem.

Actually, the bookie probably loved it. After all, 1-50 odds means there was no shot for the gnome. The odds were probably 9:10 or worse for the Dragonborn. For a bookie, odds that long means everyone was probably betting on the Dragonborn and he just wanted to make sure he didn't lose too much when the gnome got hammered. The bookie probably cleaned up.

Last time I checked, Ask Wizards was usually considered a place for official answers (As its usually answered by the actual developers or similar people), and they said it was melee. I don't think there is any more official ruling then that.

FAQ/CustServ/Sage is NOT RAW. They are contradictory and often have ruled in ways that are obviously not following the RAW. Sage even admits his first desire is balanced rulings, not making rulings, you know, by the rules. There's a 20+ page thread over at Gleemax debating this, given that 2 Wizards sources have made 2 different declarations. Let's find something better to do with our time, please.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Actually, the bookie probably loved it. After all, 1-50 odds means there was no shot for the gnome. The odds were probably 9:10 or worse for the Dragonborn. For a bookie, odds that long means everyone was probably betting on the Dragonborn and he just wanted to make sure he didn't lose too much when the gnome got hammered. The bookie robably cleaned up.

If everyone else was making similar small bets up to 20 or so, an individual bookie would have needed at least 75 people (quite a lot for one bookkeeper, especially if it's not centralized into one official betting parlor or syndicate) making bets to even cover the winnings.

And what were the odds in favor of the dragonborn there, anyway? 9:10? If the winner was so obvious that everyone would bet on the Dragonborn, bookies wouldn't have taken bets, because they'd have lost. They're the ones actually making money from the betting, after all.

[Hzurr]

Well... I haven't actually. But well.. In movies..

There is always the coach next to the ring shouting "Punch lower! Punch lower! Protect your face!!!"...

Well, that is exactly that power.

I don't see it all that humorous. That's how it should work.

"You're a bum, Rocky!"

err... not exactly "inspiring" in the traditional sense, but I guess it works.

[Tengu_temp]

I don't care if this is legal by RAW, or how much sense do these odds make - this example is awesome. Kudos for the player for using his powers in a smart way and making an otherwise (probably) background and relatively unimportant element of the session memorable.

EDIT: Ah, and the player is the OP. Right. Kudos to him, then.

[Blackfang108]

"You're a bum, Rocky!"

err... not exactly "inspiring" in the traditional sense, but I guess it works.

My inspiring words come from R Lee Ermey.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Apparently if this is true or not is a issue that merits a 29 page thread. Ah, gleemax.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1052820

That thread is silly. WotC actually answered this weeks ago (#18), and still the stupid thread goes on.

[FoE]

The DM was surprised, happens to everybody. Besides, if the power can be canceled by loud noise, the entire Warlord class just got taken down by a loudspeaker feedback loop.

There were exceptional circumstances here. The Warlord was shouting encouragement to a complete stranger from a long distance away (an arena seat to the arena floor) amongst hundreds of other voices likely chanting "KILL! KILL! KILL! KILL!"

Of course, I'm guessing this was a proper coliseum and not a dozen people gathered around a pit, like in Conan the Barbarian.

[Morty]

That thread is silly. WotC actually answered this weeks ago (#18), and still the stupid thread goes on.

When was the last time things like "there being a definite answer to the question" stopped RPG players from discussing something obsessively?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That thread is silly. WotC actually answered this weeks ago (#18), and still the stupid thread goes on.

Several issues. First, Custserv is not RAW! They seem to get pleasure out of making confusing, contradictory, and outright wrong answers at times. Second, WotC has actually answered this twice, ruling opposite ways each time. Third, this way is cooler anyhow, and more balanced, so even if it is satisfactorily resolved, it may still become a common houserule.

[Mando Knight]

Third, this way is cooler anyhow, and more balanced, so even if it is satisfactorily resolved, it may still become a common houserule.

1st Commandment of Playing 4E Correctly: Thou Shalt Invoke The Rule Of Cool Wherever It Shall Cause Awesome.