Immovable Rod in a Bag of Holding? @_@

[Soup of Kings]

So, me and my buddies were wondering what would happen if you suspended an Immovable Rod vertically in midair and slipped an empty Bag of Holding over it. We came up with a few theories...

• The Bag is somehow stopped from covering the Rod
• The Rod slips into the Bag and then moves with it, and can't be removed except by reaching into the bag to deactivate it
• The Bag simply dangles from the Rod and can't be moved

We were also wondering, if the second case were true, what sort of uses a Movable Immovable Rod could have. For instance, what would happen if you beat someone with it?
What do you guys think?

[shadow_archmagi]

So, me and my buddies were wondering what would happen if you suspended an Immovable Rod vertically in midair and slipped an empty Bag of Holding over it. We came up with a few theories...

• The Bag is somehow stopped from covering the Rod
• The Rod slips into the Bag and then moves with it, and can't be removed except by reaching into the bag to deactivate it
• The Bag simply dangles from the Rod and can't be moved

What do you guys think?

Option number three. It is the only one that makes sense.

[Soup of Kings]

Well, I thought that too, but if the Bag is an extra-dimensional pocket, would the Rod stay fixed relative to its original position, or to its position in the Bag?

[monty]

Since the extradimensional space within the bag "moves" as the bag does, the rod would move also to remain stationary relative to the space in the bag.

Legitimate application of general relativity in a fantasy RPG? Have we killed any catgirls yet?

[FMArthur]

Option number three. It is the only one that makes sense.

Actually, no, only #2 makes sense. The bag's contents are stored in an extradimensional (or was it nondimensional?) space, and that space has little bearing on the world (and the bag's exterior) beyond the bag's opening. The immovable rod isn't moving in that extradimensional space, but it's equivalent to moving a portal over a still object: it is transported like anything else.

[Jayngfet]

Since it technically hasn't moved I'd say it enters the bag. From there it stays in the same spot in the bag until you enter it and deactivate it by hand.

[Dentarthur]

We were also wondering, if the second case were true, what sort of uses a Movable Immovable Rod could have. For instance, what would happen if you beat someone with it?

The same thing that would happen if you beat someone with a bag of holding that contains a +5 vorpal sword. You're just beating him with the bag, not its contents, so the rod wouldn't have any effect on him.

[monty]

The same thing that would happen if you beat someone with a bag of holding that contains a +5 vorpal sword. You're just beating him with the bag, not its contents, so the rod wouldn't have any effect on him.

A +5 vorpal bag of holding, on the other hand...there's got to be a way to do that.

[ashmanonar]

Since the extradimensional space within the bag "moves" as the bag does, the rod would move also to remain stationary relative to the space in the bag.

Legitimate application of general relativity in a fantasy RPG? Have we killed any catgirls yet?

There aren't any left. I don't remember the poster, but he posited a method by which 385 quadrillion damage could be dealt.

That alone killed any catgirls that ever have been, that are, and that will be.

[monty]

There aren't any left. I don't remember the poster, but he posited a method by which 385 quadrillion damage could be dealt.

That alone killed any catgirls that ever have been, that are, and that will be.

Not to mention all the ones I killed when I reversed the black hole...(in my sig)

There's got to be a few hiding still, though. Maybe there's one somewhere in a bag of holding, clutching an immovable rod.


And that was Swordguy, if I remember right. With the anti-osmium?
Edit: here it is. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...35#post2010735

[Lert, A.]

I would go with #1.

As soon as the rod enters the mouth of the bag it becomes stuck in relation to the space in the bag. Basically it sits in the mouth (neck, whatever) and you can't close the bag.

As I see it.

[Kaihaku]

Actually, no, only #2 makes sense. The bag's contents are stored in an extradimensional (or was it nondimensional?) space, and that space has little bearing on the world (and the bag's exterior) beyond the bag's opening. The immovable rod isn't moving in that extradimensional space, but it's equivalent to moving a portal over a still object: it is transported like anything else.

I'd agree, only two makes sense.

Also, bags of holding are great places to lock up liches if you can't get your hands on their phylactery.

[monty]

Also, bags of holding are great places to lock up liches if you can't get your hands on their phylactery.

Also good for taking out living people with powerful allies. Put them in there with a bottle of air, a ring of sustenance, and a skeleton with a sap, and have it coup de grace them over and over for eternity. Drop the bag in a portable hole, and problem solved. They can't be resurrected because they technically aren't dead, and they can't be rescued because they're, well, "forever lost."

[kjones]

All right, but what if we then put the bag of holding on an airplane, and the airplane is on a treadmill...

[Suzuro]

...if you drop the bag of holding in the portable hole...doesn't it create a universe shaking explosion...? Because if not, then my DM did something AWESOME.


-Suzuro

[CarpeGuitarrem]

#2 is right, but not because the Immovable Rod moves. It never moves. It doesn't exist in the dimensions that the outside of the bag exists in. It only exists in a room-sized pocket dimension, the inside of the bag, which is a stationary dimension. Because it never moves, the rod is suspended within it.

On the outside, the bag moves just fine.

[Dode]

Also good for taking out living people with powerful allies. Put them in there with a bottle of air, a ring of sustenance, and a skeleton with a sap, and have it coup de grace them over and over for eternity. Drop the bag in a portable hole, and problem solved. They can't be resurrected because they technically aren't dead, and they can't be rescued because they're, well, "forever lost."

I actually did something similar once with a bag of holding and the final bodily fragments needed to resurrect the god of chaos, Lord Bane. From then-on I insisted on having "the Godslayer" suffixed to my name.

[ashmanonar]

Not to mention all the ones I killed when I reversed the black hole...(in my sig)

There's got to be a few hiding still, though. Maybe there's one somewhere in a bag of holding, clutching an immovable rod.


And that was Swordguy, if I remember right. With the anti-osmium?
Edit: here it is. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...35#post2010735

Aha, yes. That's who it was. My brain occasionally lacks names.

[BobVosh]

More over to do this you need to be swift. Otherwise the world would spin too fast and it would look like the "immovable" rod just started speeding west.

Two further questions: what would happen when you turn the bag inside out?

And if the rod is immovable in terms of its relative location, when it starts to go into the bag, wouldn't it get in the way of itself? It locks onto position with the first bit of it in there. Then you are pushing the rod againist itself by trying to stuff it in the bag. Sorry if I worded this poorly.

[only1doug]

I agree that No1 is the only answer.

the extradimensional space in the bag moves relative to the bag so the rod will never go inside while active (because that would involve movement within the dimensional space).

[AstralFire]

I actually did something similar once with a bag of holding and the final bodily fragments needed to resurrect the god of chaos, Lord Bane. From then-on I insisted on having "the Godslayer" suffixed to my name.

Puzzle Quest campaign?

[Kaihaku]

Immovable Rod: This rod is a flat iron bar with a small button on one end. When the button is pushed (a move action), the rod does not move from where it is, even if staying in place defies gravity. Thus, the owner can lift or place the rod wherever he wishes, push the button, and let go. Several immovable rods can even make a ladder when used together (although only two are needed). An immovable rod can support up to 8,000 pounds before falling to the ground. If a creature pushes against an immovable rod, it must make a DC 30 Strength check to move the rod up to 10 feet in a single round.

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Rod, levitate; Price 5,000 gp

It's my impression that the Immovable Rod works by counterbalancing force to remain in place. I don't think it has the ability to counteract being shifted to extra-dimension shape, it's basis is a transmutation effect resembling levitation.

[Ionizer]

A +5 vorpal bag of holding, on the other hand...there's got to be a way to do that.

That one's simple. Just slip the bag over someone's head and puncture it while their head is still inside. The head is "lost forever" and the body promptly dies. Problem solved.

Spoiler

Show

Bag of Holding

This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size. The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions. Regardless of what is put into the bag, it weighs a fixed amount. This weight, and the limits in weight and volume of the bag’s contents, depend on the bag’s type, as shown on the table below.

Bag......Bag Weight...Weight Limit...Volume Limit....Market Price
Type I......15 lb..........250 lb...........30 cu. ft.........2,500 gp
Type II.....25 lb..........500 lb...........70 cu. ft.........5,000 gp
Type III....35 lb.........1,000 lb.........150 cu. ft........7,400 gp
Type IV....60 lb.........1,500 lb.........250 cu. ft........10,000 gp

If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever. If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate. Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action.

If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest.

[Pronounceable]

As someone has said in another thread (can't remember either):

Ftaghn Error: Please restart the game world.

[UserClone]

OH, now I see what the option #1 people are saying. #2 only works if the rod is activated when already inside of the bag, because getting the active Rod into the Bag in the first place involves the rod moving through the non-dimensional space that the bag contains, a feat which can't be accomplished without at least a 30 Str. and a roll of natural 20.

Edit: However, that depends on whether you look at it as the Rod moving through the space, or the space moving around the rod. I suppose actually it would HAVE to be #2, because if it were #1, anytime you activated the rod, it would swiftly zip off in the direction opposite the rotation of the planet, because it has to stay fixed at a point in space. [/catgirl death]

~Fin~

[Reinboom]

Everybody tends to forget catgirls continually spawn and each have 4.5 lives.

For the bag of holding, I would say it depends on whether or not you want it to just be a portal, or just an opening/passage. Also, it would depend on what the immovable rod is immovable in relation to. In one case, what if only the center of the rod is the immovable 'point'? If the moment that point crossed in to the bag of holding, would the rest of the rod suddenly have the issue of dealing with an hard to move force in its way of moving through this portal?
One point that my fiancée just made (while I was typing this) was that, it must be noted that the immovable rod is not literally immovable (a strength check moves it), and since having it radically change from one plane of existence to another must be acting upon with some sort of incredible force. Thus, it would be logical that it just simply 'moves in to'.

Now, what I wonder is that if said immovable rod ever degrades towards entropy. Would it break apart in to its core materials while said materials don't move from their point in space, would it just falter as a magical item and "drop", or...

[nargbop]

The answer to this question is : whichever is funniest. I would cast invisiblty on the Immovable Rod and leave it at crotch level for the BBEG to run into.

[Curmudgeon]

# 2. The property of nondimensional (not extradimensional) spaces is that they allow objects to transition from outside to inside and back, but the space inside has different properties. Once the Immovable Rod is fully inside the Bag, it doesn't change position in that space.

[FMArthur]

If the space is nondimensional, how can anything be at a particular position in there at all?

[Starshade]

A thought i made, is if the rod's magic create a connection from it to the surrounding world to hold it(gravity, anchoring, whatever seem plausible), it cannot be really healthy for a small extra dimentional space to have something possibly try connect past it, into astral/ether or material plane.

Id go with one option, and roll a dice to see if the strange mix causes a failure on either rod or bag. Explosions are always a solution


Its a thought i make though, if it anchor into the world, and the bag hang in loose air, what if you put a SECOND bag of holding outside the first? You would of couse loose the first bag, but its content, the rod,would possibly remain anchored into the world?
Then you would get a blown bag of holding dimention space anchored into the material plane, dangling on outside of our world, anchored by a Immovable rod in it.