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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NENAD View Post
    If V had a thing for Haley, V would have a definite gender, which V does not.
    I agree that V probably doesn't have a thing for Haley, but homosexuality is not a new concept for this comic, and Haley does have a latent bisexual side, so V having a thing for Haley would in no way clearly define his gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Dew View Post
    Haley was "confirmed good" by the same sicken effect that happened to Vaarsuvius in strip 11, for whatever that's worth.
    Unholy blight effects neutral characters as well, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    The dark side may have cookies, but the cake is a lie.
    You, sir, have won this thread.
    Last edited by Finwe; 2008-09-29 at 11:50 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    i don't think that sucha a deep main character like V will just be thrown aside.
    besides, killing a villain so the friggin bard could help him find their partners is far from evil. its just chaotic. and threatening a friend is kinda usual. i knew he/she wouldnt kill elan. I may be plain wrong, but V just want to find his mates again, bring roy back to life and find belkar and haley so they can destroy the friggin xykon and save the world.

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Thumbs up Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Manoftyr View Post
    V's actions while clearly chaotic are still not quite 'evil' in my opinion at least because they aren't motivated by self interest...all he wants to do is re-connect with Haley whom he feels incredible loyalty towards and reunite the order so they can resume 'saving the world' as he put it earlier...if his motive was entirely selfish then there'd be more of a case for arguing him being evil.

    I mean, crap, I've RPed Chaotic 'Good' characters who have done similar things to what V just did for similar reasons...threatening someone or 'using mean words' is not enough to qualify someone as evil, unless your definition of evil is inherently childish and short sighted. I remember in one campaign my chaotic 'good' character who was a revolutionary ended up killing countless Paladins because they were 'lawfully' oppressing the local populace by upholding their king's unjust taxes and violently putting down pockets of rebellion within the kingdom, they believed they were doing the 'right' and 'good' thing but were still hurting the majority...being Lawful Good doesn't automatically mean 'always right', my character saw himself as defending the common man and overthrowing oppressive tyrants and therefore was not evil, we was charitable and kind to the downtrodden and utterly selfless in his protection of them, therefore making him a good person...if strongly chaotic.

    I feel like people on this forum get the law/chaos axis and the good/evil axis confused a lot when it's actually really simple, Evil is being motivated solely out of self-interest where as Good is being motivated by the desire to help others and neutral falling in between the two. Law is going with the established way of doing things and the convention of laws, royalty, cities, mannerisms etc. and all that where as Chaotic is going 'against' that grain and again, neutrality is somewhere in between...therefore, talking like a jerk or being 'mean' doesn't at all indicate that one is evil but it does imply chaotic tendencies, it is acting out of self interest and putting yourself and only yourself ahead of others that defines you as Evil...V has done none of this.

    Of course, this is all conjecture since this is Rich's comic and 'not' mine and therefore how good/evil law/chaos work and interact is solely at his discretion, no one else's...but even still it seems that more evidence of truly anti-altruistic thinking/behavior must be gathered before we lump V into the evil, or even 'sliding' categories...at this juncture he seems to me to be either chaotic neutral or true neutral with some chaotic tendencies.

    V's intentions are still in the right, his motives are just...he's just extremely frustrated by the idiocy of practically everyone else on the freakin boat and has long since been dis-inclined towards being nice about anything, that and I can't imagine being stuck on a boat with Paladins and Nobles for months can be ANYTHING but extremely unpleasant, I'm more surprised he hasn't killed anyone up 'until' now.

    I'm hoping this ends somehow with V killing Hinjo's self-righteous, arrogant and obnoxious Lawful-Stupid Paladin ass in self-defense when Hinjo tries to arrest him thus plunging the fleet into civil war thus ending this arc which has become 'FAR' too Paladin-centric for my liking...

    And after all, killing a Paladin can't technically be considered an evil act seeing as Paladins don't have souls
    hooray.
    totally agree.

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Finwe View Post
    Unholy blight effects neutral characters as well, though.
    Unholy blight does not sicken neutrals, and the effect is rather obviously more than just damage, as is acknowledged by our writer. So yes, as of
    #11, everybody but Belkar was some Good alignment.

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Assuming that V is upset at Elan for perceived disloyalty to Haley, I kind of wonder if V's spouse cheated, which is why they aren't currently together. Would certainly make V protective of others' relationships, even aside from the fact that V seems to be better friends with Haley than anyone else.

    Idle speculation, I know, but...

  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    V's going to end the civil war - the right thing for the wrong reason, and definitely the wrong method. V is going to end it permanently.
    What civil war? A civil war would be open, armed conflict between 2 or more parties within AC society. That's not what's been happening--rather, they've had political scheming and fighting in the shadows (assassination attempts behind closed doors, as it were, not in public). Given that Shojo had feigned senility for years to avoid assassination attempts, it would seem that is just politics as usual in AC. If there's a civil war, it's one that V's actions just started.

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Argall View Post
    Unholy blight does not sicken neutrals, and the effect is rather obviously more than just damage, as is acknowledged by our writer. So yes, as of
    #11, everybody but Belkar was some Good alignment.
    Actually, comic #53 also leans towards the "V was Good" argument, unless Neutrals can have "pure hearts."

    Still, it's hard for me to accept that someone who casually inflicts pain on others (and sometimes calculatedly) and can freak out two CG people with ease (even as a "hypothetical") can really be of a Good alignment.

    Maybe V was NG at some point, but not since the end of Book 1. Personally, I think #11 was done purely for the lulz
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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cthulwho View Post
    Presumably Azure City law is still in effect on the Azure City at sea fleet, otherwise we wouldn't have all this business about Kubota getting a trial, Hinjo not being able to deal with him for that past Ninja attack on lack of evidence and so on etc.
    You presume.

    Presumably, that is what you meant.

    And Kabuto is part of the AC citizenry. On an American boat a British subject would not be required to obey american law. An american could be (by virtue of you have agreed to abide by the rules and regultions of your home country)

  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    Wow, and the populace knows who summoned it, knows what it's even doing, or WHAT THE HELL IT HAS TO DO WITH THEM?
    Demons kill humans when they appear, no matter WHO or WHY they were summoned.

    And Kabutu having disappeared could be because of just that demon.

    Try to find the "on" switch for your brain.

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Knight View Post
    So this doesn't turn into another 30 page thread, I will give my thoughts & allow you the final word as rebuttal.
    But Shojo got the agreement of the nobles by seeming senile.

    Hinjo may get the agreement of the nobles by seeming guileful.

    Remeber, the nobles aren't paladins. Heck, they aren't particularly lawful.

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Argall View Post
    Unholy blight does not sicken neutrals, and the effect is rather obviously more than just damage, as is acknowledged by our writer. So yes, as of
    #11, everybody but Belkar was some Good alignment.
    According to

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unholyBlight.htm

    it does in fact affect neutrals.

    "Only good and neutral (not evil) creatures are harmed by the spell."

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Not sure if it has been said yet, but V trying to cast a spell within Elan's stabbing distance isn't really smart either. "Disente"*stab**fizzle*
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  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Prowl View Post
    According to

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unholyBlight.htm

    it does in fact affect neutrals.

    "Only good and neutral (not evil) creatures are harmed by the spell."
    Yes, but David was talking about getting sick:

    From the SRD
    The spell deals only half damage to creatures who are neither evil nor good, and they are not sickened.
    V is good. that doesn't mean V can't do bad or neutral things, being of good alignment doesn't mean being always good.
    Last edited by teratorn; 2008-09-30 at 05:41 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    And the alignment keeps on slippin' south, ladies and gentlemen!

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  15. - Top - End - #375
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    You presume.

    Presumably, that is what you meant.

    And Kabuto is part of the AC citizenry. On an American boat a British subject would not be required to obey american law. An american could be (by virtue of you have agreed to abide by the rules and regultions of your home country)
    Yes, pretty much. The ships are are clearly still running under the authority and laws of Azure City. If they were not because "that's a crime in Azure City, but this isn't AC is it, so your law doesn't apply" then the way the various characters have been behaving wouldn't make sense.

    I'm fairly sure in the second part it is a bit more complicated then that. This isn't some sort of diplomatic immunity we are talking about.

    Now, say someone is not a legal citizen of your nation when they are on your ship and they break a law like, say, committing a murder (as legally defined by your nation). There are still laws that apply. You don't have to sigh sadly and say "sorry guys, we can't do anything legal to him, he's from Overthere while we're from Somewhere. He's just not bound by our laws."

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter
    Actually, comic #53 also leans towards the "V was Good" argument, unless Neutrals can have "pure hearts."
    How, when Celia says that "one of you of pure heart" can activate the sigil V doesn't indicate that could include her. Or that it would exclude her. As it is Haley is the one who does the actual activating.

    I guess it depends on how "pure heart" is defined. If a rogue (granted a very nice rogue) can be pure hearted, then neutrals can probably have a pure heart as well.
    Last edited by Dr. Cthulwho; 2008-09-30 at 07:17 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #376
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Well yeah. If you were an American on a British ship or visa versa, you still have to abide by the law. If you killed someone, then who gives a rat's rear where you're from. You still need to face justice. (Although your country would probably work with the other natio to make sure you had a fair trial)

    V's not from Azure City, but if he broke a law, he still needs to face justice.

  17. - Top - End - #377
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by randomnondescri View Post
    Assuming that V is upset at Elan for perceived disloyalty to Haley, I kind of wonder if V's spouse cheated, which is why they aren't currently together. Would certainly make V protective of others' relationships, even aside from the fact that V seems to be better friends with Haley than anyone else.

    Idle speculation, I know, but...
    Possible…perhaps V’s angry for having a mate and therefore being unable to pursue Haley, who is happy with Elan even though the bard is always wrapped in the arms of some bandit or police officer. However, V & Red are bunkmates who on occasion compare their, um..jewels…

  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NENAD View Post
    If V had a thing for Haley, V would have a definite gender, which V does not.
    I don't know about that. I distinctly recall asking the Giant to have V come out, without elaborating on V's gender.

  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Has anyone else considered the possibility that some of the Order are going to be replaced? We know Belkar's on his way out the door (even if it'll take him a while to hobble there), but we know Durkon's days are numbered, too. V's behavior's into uncharted territory as well, and there's still the lingering possibility that Roy may not be coming back (the Giant's certainly laid evidence along those lines, starting with 496 and continuing up until the potential defiling of the corpse). Hinjo, Julia, and Celia have all already been introduced, have some potential for replacing the story and personality dynamic roles lost, while having motivations for joining the team.

    Does anyone here seriously think that Nale wouldn't be tickled pink at this last comic, and try to recruit V? Does anyone think that if V were to truly fall, V wouldn't accept (albeit with the conscious decision to manipulate the Linear Guild from Nale's control)?

    PS: V's eyes appear to be enpinkened, not red. I think the Giant intends us to view this as a very obvious point that V's losing it, but is not yet lost.
    Last edited by San Diablo; 2008-09-30 at 12:05 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #380
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    How about this.

    Elan showed V how poor (and dangerous morally) his reasoning was by showing Belkar agreeing with this train of thought.

    V wanted to show Elan that if V were like Belkar, Elan would now be geography, because Belkar would have killed Elan to stop him being arrested. When it looks like Elan won't get it, V gives up trying to explain.

    Must V still be Evil?

    Does that not cover everything we witnessed in this strip?

  21. - Top - End - #381
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cthulwho View Post

    How, when Celia says that "one of you of pure heart" can activate the sigil V doesn't indicate that could include her. Or that it would exclude her. As it is Haley is the one who does the actual activating.

    I guess it depends on how "pure heart" is defined. If a rogue (granted a very nice rogue) can be pure hearted, then neutrals can probably have a pure heart as well.
    I agree, and think even an evil character can have a "pure heart" under the right circumstances. In that context, it's less about good/evil and more about what the character's intentions are for activating the sigil. The Linear Guild certainly had unpure hearts when it came to the sigils, so they were excluded. The Stick, however, had good intentions (or lacked evil intentions), so they were good to go.

    That said, I can't imagine Thog having any clue or intention as to why they needed to touch the sigils. So I may be wrong about the whole evil thing.

  22. - Top - End - #382
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoyoyo View Post
    That said, I can't imagine Thog having any clue or intention as to why they needed to touch the sigils. So I may be wrong about the whole evil thing.
    I agree, there probably are circumstances where an evil character could be pure hearted if defined right. And I kind of think of Thog as being a bit like the MitD, probably not impure or evil in any real sense, but more as victims of the bad crowd they hang out with

    But Nale was probably just being cautious in wanting Roy to touch the Sigil. I guess if you want the best chance to find someone pure of heart you start with good alignments and if necessary work through the neutrals and only go evil as a last resort.

  23. - Top - End - #383
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    Actually, comic #53 also leans towards the "V was Good" argument, unless Neutrals can have "pure hearts."
    I don't follow the logic there. Celia just said "ONE of you with a pure heart..." She wasn't saying that they all had pure hearts, and considering Sabine and Zz'dtri were both in the group at the time, it would be absolute nonsense to imply that she was! (You'll also note that it was Haley, not V, who ended up touching the Air sigil).

  24. - Top - End - #384
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Celia expected that anyone who was searching for the sigils was only searching them for a good cause. She couldn't detect their aligment (unless she cast a Detect Aligment)
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandabear View Post
    Not sure if it has been said yet, but V trying to cast a spell within Elan's stabbing distance isn't really smart either. "Disente"*stab**fizzle*
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    How about this.

    Elan showed V how poor (and dangerous morally) his reasoning was by showing Belkar agreeing with this train of thought.

    V wanted to show Elan that if V were like Belkar, Elan would now be geography, because Belkar would have killed Elan to stop him being arrested. When it looks like Elan won't get it, V gives up trying to explain.

    Must V still be Evil?

    Does that not cover everything we witnessed in this strip?
    It doesn't really read like V is making any sort of comparisons with Belkar. As it was, if Elan is genuine, V's intimidation ploy proved to complex or unfathomable, so for V to be trying to influence Elan in the way you're suggesting would mean she was seriously overestimating Elan's deduction abilities.

    It really looked pretty like what it was. V is saying "Ok Elan, we've just established I'm not acting appropriately or maybe even reasonably and will take serious steps to avoid distractions. So don't you think it would be foolish, considering my state of mind, to become a distraction yourself because.... I might do the same to you?!!"

  27. - Top - End - #387
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Hmm... I haven't been hyping the next update this much, ever since Roy was meteor blaster.

  28. - Top - End - #388
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cthulwho View Post
    It really looked pretty like what it was. V is saying "Ok Elan, we've just established I'm not acting appropriately or maybe even reasonably and will take serious steps to avoid distractions. So don't you think it would be foolish, considering my state of mind, to become a distraction yourself because.... I might do the same to you?!!"
    And this is the Vaarsuvius we know and love. His use of sixty words to say "Can I have a cheeseburger?" is a clichè that rarely annoys.
    But, it seems not a threat to me, just a way externalize frustration. It would very, very easy for Vaarsuvius to sum his threat in a non-confusing way, like "Elan, if you speak, I'll kill you". Both are intelligent enough to use and recognize a short live threat.
    The last speech ("Take a cookie"), seems the way a known sarcastic character would say "I take back what I say, you are not worth an headache".

  29. - Top - End - #389
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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Yeah. I think we're not seeing things from V's point of veiw.

    My best bet is that the next comic we'll see V have a mental breakdown in his room as he tries to locate Haley and Roy once again.


    V isn't Darth Vader. Just because s/he zapped one person doesn't mean s/he's now going to start zapping Hinjo's ship.

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    Default Re: OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    V is good. that doesn't mean V can't do bad or neutral things, being of good alignment doesn't mean being always good.
    Alignments change based on the actions of the characters. Even if one grants that V was once good (which is likely but not certain as of #11 and maybe the "pure of heart" episode as well), I think V's recent actions have been enough to ensure that V at least isn't good anymore, if not yet outright evil.

    When you wake up, look in the mirror and see veiny skin and glowy eyes, you may not yet be evil, but you are sure as hell on your way there.

    I think most people who are still defending V as being good aren't really interested in the effect V's actions would have on V's alignment, but rather are of the opinion that "evil is cool and good is dumb" and so simply want to defend characters the more evil that they start to get. It's pretty noticeable that most if not all of the recent defense of V as good comes from those with evil-looking avatars. Zombies, mind flayers, Cthulhus, evil Parsons, shadowy-glowy-eyed-things, etc seem overrepresented in the "V is still good" camp.

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