OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

[San Diablo]

A couple more notes before I shower and head out to work:

Elan's willingness to believe in his friends may be part of the reason he doesn't get it, but I'd be surprised if he has the patience to work out Vaarsuvius-speak on even a good day.

It's also important that V noticed the sarcasm with the Belkar illusion, but managed to utterly miss the point Elan was making. V brushes Elan off with an insult and a comment about how Belkar contributed, without V showing the slightest sign of self-reflection. Where Belkar's approval once filled Roy with shame, it doesn't even register on V anymore.

[Oracle_Hunter]

As someone else pointed out above, this isn't the first time V has threatened his teammates, as per strip #186, and giving the black dragon permission to eat them if they did not obey V's wishes in strip #185 wasn't exactly nice either.

Then again, there was something a lot more direct and personal and out of proportion about this time around. Whether that represents a permanent personality shift or simply a continuation of the 'hasn't tranced in a while' situation remains to be seen.

Oh no, I don't think V's alignment has shifted at all - ey has always had this potential. However, Roy was typically able to provide stable leadership by proving himself "smarter" than V early on (see OOPC) and now that he's gone, V is just going to keep doing what ey wants.

Unfortunately for everyone, V is not a patient person and is also quite capable of single handedly destroying the entire fleet if ey so chooses.... and if things keep going the way they have, ey may so choose

[Superglucose]

The party in terms of coheisivness as well as in terms of individual mental states are cracking while Roy is gone. He needs his resurrection NOW.

Well done, Giant.

[Elfanatic]

I never knew that my favorite character could be so...intimidating.

Go V!

[Eric]

He V is getting creepy, he wont be long from falling over the edge if he threatens his teammates like that.

Although if V had been serious about it, he wouldn't have walked off.

He's just frustrated and he's obsessed. His patience is worn out.

He IS being fantically loyal to the rest of the party, and that would explain his censure of what, for him, must seem like cheating on your partner by Elan. If V is male, he's not even interested in Haley. Maybe because he's married and everyone else is merely another person, not another *attractive* person. What happens depends on whether V's on his arc yet or not.

I wonder what would happen if Haley got in touch first using a clerical spell? If he's told of the epic level spell blocking, he may realise how stupid he's beeing...


PS Fanaticism is often a bad idea. Any situation deserves some doubt, if only to ensure you're listening to all the facts.

[LuisDantas]

Does anyone still want to argue that V is Lawful Good?

Not anymore. Although it sure shocks me to see how quicky (s)he has fallen.

[Eric]

Perhaps he did, but judging by the Sound and Fury over V's alignment, there are some out there who saw little or no slope, slippery or otherwise.

But unless you've FALLEN down the slope, the existence of said slope doesn't change your alignment.

[LuisDantas]

Huh... that effect with V there (...) There's some other comic that I can't remember right now that uses that effect with spellcasting or the equivilant. Help me out here?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...yesTakeWarning

[Eric]

No, V is obsessed with finding Haley. Saving the world is second, and s/he's not in the mood for any third place goals.

You can be obsessed with several things at a time, you know. And which one is most is impossible to prove on the info we have to hand.

[LuisDantas]

What exactly has Elan done because he won't give Haley up?

In the absence of more precise indication, it would seem to be a reference to the moment when he admitted to Therkla that he is not interested in a relationship even if she managed to survive the poison (some people think that was inconsiderate of him). It's possible that he is also remembering Therkla's offer to be with him until they find Haley, although I don't think Elan is that sort of person.

Then again, I stood quite corrected about V.

[Eric]

Yep, clearly LG. A paragon of virtue and honor.

That would be "Paladin LG".

[LuisDantas]

You mean you didn't see that weeks ago?

Me, I only saw it since #595. And it was very abrupt, too.

To Dish: I'm not sure why people are so anxious to see V speak the four words. It seems to me that absolute arcane power isn't something that we should expect V to obtain any time soon, since the plot isn't anywhere close to the end.

[Oracle_Hunter]

But unless you've FALLEN down the slope, the existence of said slope doesn't change your alignment.

Oh, V hasn't changed eirs alignment - but ey has certainly gone down a slope to a darker place. That change in personality (not alignment) is the "slope" I'm referring to. But in that thread, there were people claiming that not only has V always been LG (or XG in any case) but that no action ey has taken has deviated from that position.

Me? I think V's been Neutral since the start (heck, even from OOPC) and solely focused on increasing eirs command of Arcane Powers.

Under Roy's leadership ey has been more "goodly" in the sense that ey usually follows Roy's orders because V respects Roy. Compare that with V's attitude towards Miko, who ey doesn't respect at all. A similar pattern of callous behavior is reasserting itself now, when there is no "superior" individual to break V from monomania.

It is possible, if V goes "dark" enough (say, by murdering eirs friends and allies) that V may end up NE, and that is the scary trajectory that V is on right now.

[Lichtouch]

My prediction?

On page 600, V will be saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons. V's already doing the right things for the wrong reasons - executing Kubota, for example. All we have to do is play the waiting game.

[RebelRogue]

Haha! Well its great to know that Elan still retains his "less then 10" Intelligence score. Not only did the previous few comics raise the idea that Elan has been getting "smarter," but it was great for his first major display of stupidity ended up saving his life

If anything, Elan seems to be getting wiser, not smarter!

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Wow.... and next time on "When Androgynous Elven Spell Casters Attack!"... V seems to be, while not snapping, definitely fracturing a little under the pressure . Her inability to succeed in her goals of finding Haley and co, the stress of Azure City... Elan scoring points with Belkar comparisons... I'd feel more sorry for her if I wasn't a bit scared now.

All in all a great comic - and really, no one does intimidating quite like a mage. Of course V forget that to intimidate Elan it's best to K.I.S.S.

And it was nice to see Elan's inability to fathom someone he once looked up to was threatening him harm for rather meaningless reasons was so great at breaking even Sith V's intimidator-y posturing.

[Prowl]

Of course V forget that to intimidate Elan it's best to K.I.S.S.

Something that V is constitutionally incapable of doing...

[Njord]

Contrary to the main stream here, I didn't see V as evil at all in this strip, nor as someone in the edge of snapping and turning into a villain.

I may be completely wrong of course, but what I saw was V being pragmastic as he has always been:

1- The Problem: Elan telling Hinjo about V last desintegrating action
2- Why is it a Problem: because then Hinjo will distract him from his research, which might lead into another desintegrating action and more distractions.
3- Pragmatic Solution: Trying to stop Elan from telling Hinjo:
4- Neutral Solution: threaten Elan no to do it
5- Evil Solution: Desintegrating Elan so he won't do it.

the very fact that V states that will take longer for Elan to understand the situation than for he just go and continue he researches show me, so very definitily that he is thinking straighly Clear, and light-years from snapping.

It was a threat - as oracle hunter put it - backed by a bluff or a desintegrate, V has shown as it was backed by a Bluff.

Ps: I do also think that elan really didn`t get it, and was not playing stupid, as for he is plain stupid.

[The Tygre]

So did V just roll a 1 on intimidate? Either way, it's perturbing to watch...and yet, I cannot look away!

[ZerglingOne]

My only 2 complaints with this recent comic (holy crap V was scary) were that V should have had a magenta/purple speech bubble to signify a scary arcane reverb voice, and there wasn't some joke cracked about failed intimidate checks. Otherwise this is one of the best in a while as we rarely see Vaarsuvius display a clear emotion.

[SteveMB]

Damn, Elan just balanced out his recent competence with truckloads of fail. I know he's supposed to be something of a comic relief character, but that had to be the worst language comprehension job ever.

It could also be that he has a blind spot about V because s/he is a friend and (former?) ally.

[Samurai Jill]

New comic is up.

Yeah. Subtle. ...But have you considered a well-placed flashing neon billboard?

Otherwise, nice strip.

[Maxdibe]

V with pink eyes really scared me

I think all character are going through a dark phase... we see Durkon mad at V, V disintegrating Kubota and being mad at Elan, Elan mad at V, Haley founding her old time rival, Belkar being sick.

...Roy just watching from the sky.

[Danukian]

Did you perhaps limit your affair with the NPC to Oral pleasures?

I nearly spit coffee everywhere!

[Freshmeat]

V is turning more awesome with every passing minute.

[Kaytara]

Wow... Vaarsuvius is officially nuts. I mean, being so concerned about rescuing a person that he threatens to kill that person's love interest? That's REAL logical, V.

Still, I think it's mostly frustration and impatience, as well as trance deprivation crankiness that's showing here. In a more normal state of mind, V probably would have tried to TALK Elan into this, rather than immediately resorting to threats.

I don't think Elan was obfuscating stupidity here... He's never shown to be very good at hiding his emotions and I think he wouldn't look quite so calm if he'd realised that Vaarsuvius was actually threatening him. He'd probably look downright horrified at what V had become. Even more so, I mean.

I don't think V is entirely in the wrong here, either. Consider V's point of view: You're literally working yourself sick trying to solve this problem. The other two guys mostly just sit twiddling their thumbs or run off on some wild sidequests with random NPCs. Every so often, they force you to get involved in some way, though you'd rather just keep working. If they can't help, then they at least shouldn't get in the way, right?
Then to top it off, the supposedly high-Wisdom dwarf wants you to move on and look for the bloody GATE instead, and though you've tried telling him why it's a bad idea, he's just convinced it's your emotions speaking. And then the spoony bard is broken over some NPC having been in love with him, though he's done nothing but hinder your own efforts of rescuing his girlfriend. And when you point out his lack of loyalty and failure to contribute, he just calls you horrible and mean and says he'll tell on you - because you happened to hurt his feelings, not because he thinks it's the right thing to do, mind you - even though you're the only one actually trying to fix things. And doesn't that idiot realise that you going to trial for killing that villain at this point would even FURTHER hinder you in solving the problem? (Oh, and you just saved the whole fleet from being destroyed by a ludicrously huge devil.)

I'm actually feeling really sorry for V right now. Pretty much any normal person would snap under those circumstances. However, the difference between a normal person and Vaarsuvius is, of course, the crazy amount of powerful magic the latter wields. This isn't going anywhere good, and things are going to get even worse before they get better.

[Marduk Prophet]

I'm waiting to hear folks justify V as "good"

Moving on... the comic has gotten a lot more "blue" lately, and V is hitting pretty below the belt. Perhaps this dog kicking was to better establish V's mental degradation for those who were clinging a bit hard to the Good V idea.

Also: V's Intimidate was blocked by Elan's Greater Obfuscating Stupidity

It's a bit chilling how close to death Elan was. I wonder if V is going to end up offing another PC before this book is through...

Wait, who was the first PC.....?

[Slamexo]

Bad V! Things do not bode well for our untranced elf here.

Still, this does leave questions as to what the 600 strip will be.... perhaps V really does blast Elan!

[Kaytara]

Wait, who was the first PC.....?

"Another" PC meaning that V would kill someone who is a PC like himself. Not that he's already killed one.

[Samurai Jill]

4- Neutral Solution: threaten Elan no to do it
5- Evil Solution: Desintegrating Elan so he won't do it.

Not really. Disintegrating Elan is likely to lead to 'complications' involving angry dwarven clerics with hammers, which I'd wager is one obstacle V can't trivially remove- plus, Durkon is still a useful ally. So, a purely 'Evil V' might still prefer threats to action on selfish grounds. I guess it's possible V's just bluffing under duress here, but... he's never really bothered with it before.

P.S: Whatever Elan's opinion, Therkla was a blatant plot construct with all the independent depth and substance of roll-on mascara. NE-EXT!

Wow... Vaarsuvius is officially nuts. I mean, being so concerned about rescuing a person that he threatens to kill that person's love interest? That's REAL logical, V.

Well, he's (or at least pretends to be) primarily interested in rescuing Haley as a side-effect of contacting Roy... who knows the Gate's location. So they can get back to saving the world. ...Again, in theory.

I reckon this topic is gonna run afoul of the whole "This character is just doing what they think is best using some fairly drastic methods" quagmire. Well, at least now we can get back to something like the main plot... whatever that is, exactly.