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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Hey, I'm all for good character development and of any of the characters, Elan has been the one to really gain some depth (and find some cajones)...but isn't he a bit (dare I say quite a bit) hypocritical for scolding V when he had been traveling with Belkar for all those years? I'm sure someone has the innocent kill count for Belkar, but Elan would have had to of turned innumerable blind eyes to Belkar's acts of, well, bald-faced MURDER, and yet when V zaps someone based on a fairly accurate judgment call, all of a sudden Elan steps on the moral soapbox.

    So....do I have the facts wrong or is Elan hypocrite?

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    You forget that Elan is more story-wise than character-wise. Why scold the cold murder whose role, in the group, is to murder? Vaarsuvius, on the other hand, is one of the "responsible".
    Elan never protest when someone act the way it is supposed to act, by trope or canon.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaego View Post
    Hey, I'm all for good character development and of any of the characters, Elan has been the one to really gain some depth (and find some cajones)...but isn't he a bit (dare I say quite a bit) hypocritical for scolding V when he had been traveling with Belkar for all those years? I'm sure someone has the innocent kill count for Belkar, but Elan would have had to of turned innumerable blind eyes to Belkar's acts of, well, bald-faced MURDER, and yet when V zaps someone based on a fairly accurate judgment call, all of a sudden Elan steps on the moral soapbox.

    So....do I have the facts wrong or is Elan hypocrite?
    I don't think so. Belkar was kept on a fairly tight leash by Roy, and if not Roy then Durkon. I guess really how many acts of evil (like bald-face MURDER) have we seen Belkar commit in front of Elan? If he was doing to much out of control stuff Roy and Durkon would be on his case. That was kind of a point of Belkar's relationship with the Order - they limited his outrageousness. We knew he was evil, Miko couldn't prove it because of a lead sheet kind of thing.

    Now remove Roy and Durkon and you have what Haley has had to put up with. And Elan has matured and not so naive anymore.

    And Belkar only ever suggested killing tied up prisoners, he never actually did it in front of Elan. Now if he'd stabbed Nale in the eye the first time they caught him, well, I dare say Elan would have had something to say about it.
    Last edited by Dr. Cthulwho; 2008-09-25 at 12:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    The only time I can think of that Belkar killed a monster after it surrendered was in comic 115. Sorry my HTML skills are that good. Elan wasn't around because he was to busy pressing the self destruct button.

    Anyways, Belkar is evil and that type of behaviour is well within Belkar's character. V has always been a neutral type so this was very out of character. I can't for the life of me remember anytime where a similar situation happened in comic.

    I don't think Elan is being hypocritical at all. Like I said before he has never witnessed a person he looks up to do something so evil in front of him before.
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Uh... you may observe that Elan essentially uses Belkar as a prime example of what V should NOT be doing.

    "I honestly don't see any problem with that plan! Rock on, elf buddy!"

    And to be frank, I am deeply frightened and confused by what look like emergent traces of Elan's intellect.
    Last edited by Samurai Jill; 2008-09-25 at 02:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    I would say Wit more than Intellect

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Maybe Elan wanted to kill Kubota himself.
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurentio II View Post
    You forget that Elan is more story-wise than character-wise. Why scold the cold murder whose role, in the group, is to murder? Vaarsuvius, on the other hand, is one of the "responsible".
    Elan never protest when someone act the way it is supposed to act, by trope or canon.
    This, pretty much, except that what Elan wanted was to put Kubota to trial because he was a major villain. Most of the people Belkar killed were minor NPCs.

    (OK, maybe not, but it paints Elan in a different light if you think his motivations are only for drama.)
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    I'm not sure if he's a hypocrite, but he's not being Elan right now, and that's annoying. Sarcastic, understanding what's going on, responsible, competent with his illusions and even catching Kubota... He becoming some kind of tragic hero, I hope he'll be back to normal when he meets back with Haley.
    He was still himself when Roy first scried on him, what with the eyepatch and everything. Hell, he was still himself with the rendezvous. I understand that Therkla's death (and now, Kabuto's death) had an effect on him, it's normal I guess, but I hope it's not definite. I hope it's not a character change, more of phase to develop him further.

    This being said, he's not a hypocrite, because at Belkar's time, Elan was just too oblivious to whatever was going on around him to pass such a judgement. Now, he isn't anymore.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    I like the new Elan. I like Elan in general, too, he's always been my favorite of the OotS, but I'd prefer it if he didn't backslide.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lissou View Post
    He becoming some kind of tragic hero...
    His prophecy prohibits that.
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeejimbo View Post
    His prophecy prohibits that.
    Wait, Tragic Heroes can't have happy endings?

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Wait, Tragic Heroes can't have happy endings?
    I'm fairly (though not completely) sure that goes against the very definition of Tragic Hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    A tragic hero is a literary character who makes errors in judgment, in his or her actions, that inevitably leads to his or her own downfall.
    I was under the impression that if they got a happy ending, they aren't tragic heroes.
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Vader. Happy ending (of sorts: morally redeemed, saved galaxy) Still a tragic hero.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Vader. Happy ending (of sorts: morally redeemed, saved galaxy) Still a tragic hero.
    True, I did see that on the list of tragic heroes on Wikipedia, but I disagree with it. I think he's a tragic hero in Episodes I through III but ceases to be so in IV through VI. I see Episodes I through III as a separate story from IV through VI.

    In short I disagree with Vader being called a tragic hero, or at least an Aristotelian tragic hero, though I can agree with Anakin being called a tragic hero, even an Aristotelian one.
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Tragic Hero, Villain, and Redeemed Villain in succession. A tragic hero who has become a villain. Does he automatically lose tragic hero status when focus moves away from him?

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Tragic Hero, Villain, and Redeemed Villain in succession. A tragic hero who has become a villain. Does he automatically lose tragic hero status when focus moves away from him?
    Well I thought so anyway. I'll have to ask my English professor about this one.
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    of course, given that they were produced long after, any "tragic hero" in Vader is retroactive.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    of course, given that they were produced long after, any "tragic hero" in Vader is retroactive.
    We already knew from the original trilogy that Anakin/Vader used to be a hero before turning to evil, though. We just didn't know the details of how and why it happened.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Elan is not being a hypocrite- you've a slight missunderstanding of the word. Elan would be a hyprocrite if he casually killed important NPCs and then scolded V for doing the same.

    What he is being- by scolding V but not scolding Belkar for the same thing- is inconsistant. Technically.

    Technically, he is also being inconsistant when he stabs hobgoblins but doesn't stab his girlfriend.

    But in the real world (and in stick figure web comics), people don't treat everyone the same.
    Which is sensible. Trying to scold Belkar for being evil would be pretty hopeless.
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Also, while Elan is still an idiot, he's not as stupid as he was at the start of the comic. Back in strip #11, he didn't even know that Belkar was Evil. Exactly when he figured that out, who knows.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    I think Elan's genre-savvy nature is what is consistent here: minor character aren't really "people" in a literary sense, so Belkar's treatment of them isn't worth constraining. Kubota is a major character, so V's treatment of him in a manner reminiscent of Belkar is worth noting and objecting to (although too late).

    Now, whether that is hypocritical or not is a slightly different matter, and my internal jury is still out. For the reasons above, though, I think any hypocrisy would be fairly minor.

    ETA: If Elan is indeed CG, the hypocritical part of this would be his determination to take the issue to court. V's action really falls well into the CG spectrum, IMHO: Kubota is obviously guilty, and has admitted it to Elan and stated his intention to exploit the system to escape justice. Ergo, Good cannot be served except by taking direct, personal action. Has Elan shifted to NG?
    Last edited by Occasional Sage; 2008-09-25 at 04:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    The sense I get from Elan is that his player is a newbie who has been slowly learning how the game works.

    The basic nature of the character hasn't changed, but the cute, comical cluelessness has been slowly wearing off (and- let's be honest- it would have worn a bit thin by now anyway).
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro View Post
    The sense I get from Elan is that his player is a newbie who has been slowly learning how the game works.

    The basic nature of the character hasn't changed, but the cute, comical cluelessness has been slowly wearing off (and- let's be honest- it would have worn a bit thin by now anyway).
    Just as Belkar's senseless killing has worn thin. Hence why I'm glad for the development.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    I didn't mean he was actually becoming a tragic hero, or would remain one for that matter. I meant he looked like one, right now. I know the unhappy war phase is just that, a phase, and the story gets brighter later on, the Giant stated so.

    I'm just saying Elan isn't the same and it kinda sucks, fortunately we sill have the CitD for our dose of naiveté and childishness.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    I don't see the hypocrisy- Elan expects more of Varsuvius, and is a little upset that someone he looks up to would be so callous. Belkar does this sort of thin all the time but that's Belkar, what are you going to do about it? Fish will swim, yeah? As far as Elan's concerned, this has come out of the blue. The two have never been in a moral argument, the same way V and Roy have been a few times, so I'm putting Elan's reaction down to shock and dissapointment, maybe even a mild sense of betrayal.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    Just as Belkar's senseless killing has worn thin. Hence why I'm glad for the development.

    Belkar is a foil, and foils are allowed to remain foils as long as they keep finding new and varied ways of foiling. He has stayed fresh to my eyes- the Belkar who broke out of prison and slaughtered a bunch of Azurites was more ruthless than the one in the first few hundred comics, for example, while the mark of justice has made things more complicated in the present. The evolution of his feud with V, the way he seemed almost heroic when contrasted with Miko (as he became an antagonist to a character most of us hated), Roy's death and Haley's attempts to replace him as Belkar's babysitter, etc.

    I think he'll always be a ruthless little jerk, but I still find him interesting. YMMV.
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    He's only slightly thin to me and can still amuse, just not as well as before. He's done a lot better than Bun-Bun, for example, who at this point aggravates me with merely his presence.

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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    It's just this simple: When Belkar was around, it was Roy's job to scold him. It's not that Elan gave him a free pass, it's that Belkar was already getting in trouble anyway. Elan is ultimately willing to let other people do the mental "heavy lifting" when they are around; he only goes into hero-mode when he is alone, like right now.

    Roy is not here now, so Elan is trying to act like he thinks Roy would, and that means scolding V.
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    Default Re: Elan's Hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    He's only slightly thin to me and can still amuse, just not as well as before. He's done a lot better than Bun-Bun, for example, who at this point aggravates me with merely his presence.
    I'm sorry, but who or what is Bun-Bun?
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