3.5 Keen for Bows?

[Kizara]

So, I have an archer that wants a lower threat range.

Is there any keen enchantment effect that lowers a bow's threat range?

Thanks in advance. (and please name source)

[Telonius]

Text source: the SRD.

Keen
This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.) This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, keen edge; Price +1 bonus.

The Keen enhancement is left off of the table for Ranged Weapons special abilities.

While text trumps table, there is another item to consider.

From the Keen Edge spell:

This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A threat range of 20 becomes 19-20, a threat range of 19-20 becomes 17-20, and a threat range of 18-20 becomes 15-20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. (Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.)

Emphasis added. RAW, technically all of the bows are listed as "piercing." However, it's pretty clear that (RAI) the piercing is referring to the ammunition fired from the bow, not the bow itself.

There's nothing whatsoever stopping somebody from creating Keen Arrows. However...

Magic Ammunition and Breakage
When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, shuriken, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, bullet, or shuriken that hits is destroyed.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Keen appears to apply. The enhancement says "This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen", with no restrictions on melee or ranged. It's certainly not broken to allow it to be applied to a bow, especially since bows are one of the weakest weapons to apply it to(20/x3).

[Triaxx]

Improved Critical works too.

[monty]

Improved Critical works too.

But that also takes a feat.

[Kizara]

Well, I suppose that technically works. Not sure if I can get it past my DM. It's pretty obvious its piercing and slashing MELEE weapons as RAI.

Thanks for pointing it out, it can't hurt to ask.

[Eldariel]

Eh, just get Keen Edge cast on your weapon. It's crystal clear that using the spell with ranged weapons is legal - if your DM doesn't like allowing Keen on weapons, that works.

[Kizara]

Eh, just get Keen Edge cast on your weapon. It's crystal clear that using the spell with ranged weapons is legal - if your DM doesn't like allowing Keen on weapons, that works.

That means getting a caster able to cast 3rd level spells to tag along to cast it on my bow every fight.

Which while doable, will be inconvient in my (low-magic) setting.


Nonetheless, it is a good solution. Thanks.

[Fax Celestis]

Bows cannot be keen; arrows, however, can. The omission from the Ranged Weapons Properties table is because that the application of the keen application to the bow is impossible: a bow is essentially a bent stave and is therefore neither slashing or piercing. However, an arrow is a piercing weapon and can also be utilized as an improvised melee weapon (and can therefore be keened as a melee weapon). The property will maintain even if used as a ranged weapon, just as a thrown dagger maintains its magical properties.

[snoopy13a]

My take is that one can craft keen arrows or bolts but not bows.

It is fairly vague but many effects have:

"Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow blah, blah, blah on their ammo"

Keen does not have this description.

However, it doesn't specifically say one cannot have keen bows like with the Ki focus effect:

"The magic weapon serves as a channel for the wielder’s ki, allowing her to use her special ki attacks through the weapon as if they were unarmed attacks. These attacks include the monk’s stunning attack, ki strike, and quivering palm, as well as the Stunning Fist feat. Only melee weapons can have the ki focus ability. "

My take is that if they intended to have keen bows then they'd have the "Bows, crossbows, and slings..." sentence at the end of the description.

[AstralFire]

As an aside - I have never understood the need to have Keen and Impact separate (I don't think Impact is even Core?) and such since there's nothing really of -note- to recommend for Piercing and less so for Bludgeoning to compensate for Vorpal.

[Rebonack]

Make a bow that has a sharp point on it somewhere. Now it's a piercing weapon. Problem solved!

[Person_Man]

There's a Ranger 1 spell in the Spell Compendium, Hunter's Mercy. It makes your next ranged attack an automatic critical hit. So anyone can use it with a 1 level dip or a moderate investment in UMD. Sadly its a standard action, but its low enough level that you could Quicken it, if you're playing an Archivist or want to invest in a custom Wand.

FYI, investing in Keen really doesn't help that much. In the best case scenario, Keen adds a 5% chance of *4 damage or a 15% chance of *2 damage. But even then, Keen only adds extra damage when you confirm the hit.

With a bow, you're only adding a 5% chance of *3 damage. Extra dice from Sneak Attack or Flaming weapons aren't multiplied. So let's assume you have an average of 10 points of damage per successful hit. And let's assume you're attacking an enemy with just 10 AC, and you have a +10 to Hit (95% chance of hitting. You only miss on a natural 1).

So in this case Keen adds .05 * .95 * 20 (the extra damage), or .95 expected points of extra damage per attack. Less then if you had just bought an additional +1 for your weapon.

[Fax Celestis]

There's a Ranger 1 spell in the Spell Compendium, Hunter's Mercy. It makes your next ranged attack an automatic critical hit. So anyone can use it with a 1 level dip or a moderate investment in UMD. Sadly its a standard action, but its low enough level that you could Quicken it, if you're playing an Archivist or want to invest in a custom Wand.

FYI, investing in Keen really doesn't help that much. In the best case scenario, Keen adds a 5% chance of *4 damage or a 15% chance of *2 damage. But even then, Keen only adds extra damage when you confirm the hit.

With a bow, you're only adding a 5% chance of *3 damage. Extra dice from Sneak Attack or Flaming weapons aren't multiplied. So let's assume you have an average of 10 points of damage per successful hit. And let's assume you're attacking an enemy with just 10 AC, and you have a +10 to Hit (95% chance of hitting. You only miss on a natural 1).

So in this case Keen adds .05 * .95 * 20 (the extra damage), or .95 expected points of extra damage per attack. Less then if you had just bought an additional +1 for your weapon.

That is, of course, assuming you're not using a greatbow or a larger-sized longbow. Large Longbows are 2d6 weapons, averaging 7 damage plus your composite modifier (if you have one) plus any magical enhancements (at least +1, if you're going to put keen on it).

[Kizara]

As for why I want it, it has alot to do with various houserules, as my games generally do.

In this case:

We use a 2d10 rolling system, and bows are x5 to compensate (somewhat) for their lower crit chance.

In my re-write of the Order of the Bow Initiate, I included an ability that gives threat range reduction.

In part because of the 2d10 thing, I allow Keen to stack with Improved Crit.


So, if I can get a keen bow somehow, it means 17-20/x5. :)

[Fax Celestis]

That means a 20% chance of x5 damage, which is a bit more significant than 5% of x3.

[erikun]

I am counting a 10% chance (10:100) to roll 17+ on a 2d10.

[Fax Celestis]

I am counting a 10% chance (10:100) to roll 17+ on a 2d10.

Oh, right. /me smacks forehead. Skipped over the 2d10 bit.

[ocato]

A simple house-rule a friend of mine uses simply states that instead of enchanting a bow, you can enchant a quiver. Of course, a magic bow and a magic quiver don't stack, so your +3 bow is a +3 bow regardless of the fact you have a +1 shocking quiver. However, if you want to change bows all day (short, long, great, etc) that +1 shocking quiver is really great. Since the quiver is enchanted to infer its bonus on any ammunition pulled from it, a +1 keen quiver is completely allowed.

[Person_Man]

As for why I want it, it has alot to do with various houserules, as my games generally do.

In this case:

We use a 2d10 rolling system, and bows are x5 to compensate (somewhat) for their lower crit chance.

In my re-write of the Order of the Bow Initiate, I included an ability that gives threat range reduction.

In part because of the 2d10 thing, I allow Keen to stack with Improved Crit.


So, if I can get a keen bow somehow, it means 17-20/x5. :)

Ah. Heavy house rules involved. OK then, I retract my earlier math, which only applies to RAW, or if you've otherwise invested in pumping your base damage as Fax suggested. Also, you should take a look at Peerless Archer from Silver Marches (or Hank's Bow from the cartoon supplement). Either will give you a Power Attack like ability, which would greatly benefit from crazy crit rules.

Might I ask, do enemies use the same rules? In general, a high crit probability and damage in the rules work AGAINST the PCs, because it greatly increases the chance that they might die before retreating or healing. If that's the case, I highly suggest finding a way to get immune to crits.

[AstralFire]

Hank's Energy Bow

A must for archer builds. Also underpriced severely.

[Paul H]

Hi

Just read the PHB. It clearly states that BOWs, not the arrows are Piercing Wpns. After all, you add the Flaming ability to the weapon, not the ammunition. (Flaming Arrow is the exeption). So yes - Keen works on Bows. (Impact is same for Bludgeoning Wpns).

Hunter's Mercy has already been mentioned - it lasts until end of the following round. In our WLD campaign a new player with his Ranger made good use of that last Thurs, with his Mighty +4 Str Comp Longbow.

As an aside I've just created a Ftr 1/Warmage 6 char for a Living Planar game we're playing this weekend. Armed with +1 Spellstoring Longbow can do mega damage on a crit. (Flaming Arrows for extra D6 Dam + Edge, 8D6 + Edge Scorching Ray stored in bow).
Try Basic damage of (D8 +1) + (D6+2) + (8D6 + 2)

Oh - and with the Accuracy spell max range is 2200'. Truestrike can negate the -20 to hit. (Accuracy, Truestrike, Flaming Arrow, Scorching Ray are all on Warmage spell-list).

Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Practiced Spellcaster, Rapid Shot.
Str 12 Dex 16, Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 14 (32pt Buy)

Cheers
Paul H

[mabriss lethe]

5 levels of binder, Improved binding feat.

Bind Andras. The "Sure Blows" ability nets you improved crit with any weapon you wield, If you already have improved crit, you gain a +4 bonus to confirm a crit.

[Talya]

Huh. Interesting.

I'm playing a Goliath 4 Swordsage/3 Ranger using Fax's Falling Star martial discipline and the Zen Archery feat with a 2d8 Large Greatbow. It's a ton of fun...i love seeing new ideas on archery builds. That ranger spell that makes your next hit a critical strike will work well with Fax's Sure Shot strike.

[mangosta71]

As an aside - I have never understood the need to have Keen and Impact separate (I don't think Impact is even Core?) and such since there's nothing really of -note- to recommend for Piercing and less so for Bludgeoning to compensate for Vorpal.

This is why, when I DM a campaign, I houserule abilities for piercing (Heartseeker) and bludgeoning (Skullcrusher) weapons that function as vorpal does for slashing.

Back on topic, if an enchanted bow "bestows this property upon its ammunition" and the arrow itself can be keen, why couldn't the bow be keen?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Well, I suppose that technically works. Not sure if I can get it past my DM. It's pretty obvious its piercing and slashing MELEE weapons as RAI.

At the very least, I'd read the RAW to mean that only arrows can be keen, not bows; since the text doesn't have the "ranged weapons confer this on ammunition fired with them" clause.

[Telonius]

(EDIT: this is responding to Mangosta) Because "Keen," based on its text, can only be bestowed on a Piercing or Slashing weapon. You can't have a Keen quarterstaff, for example. Technically all bows are listed as Piercing weapons. But it seems pretty clear (to me at least) that this was done because the ammunition they fire would do piercing damage. The bow itself, if you were to use it as a weapon, would probably do bludgeoning. I think the wording of the "Keen Edge" spell supports that interpretation; why would they bother with that bit about the arrows, if the spell (which essentially gives the weapon the Keen property) can be cast on the bow?

[mangosta71]

why would they bother with that bit about the arrows, if the spell (which essentially gives the weapon the Keen property) can be cast on the bow?

So that someone can cast Keen Edge on a bunch of arrows and then distribute them among the party, giving everyone the benefit? As you said, technically, the bow is a piercing weapon, so even though I agree that it's due to the arrows being fired, the wording on the Keen enchantment does not rule ranged weapons out, so there's no real reason you can't. The table of randomly generated ranged weapons may not include it, but there's nothing in the rules that disallows it, while there are implications that it would be allowable.

[Fax Celestis]

So that someone can cast Keen Edge on a bunch of arrows and then distribute them among the party, giving everyone the benefit? As you said, technically, the bow is a piercing weapon, so even though I agree that it's due to the arrows being fired, the wording on the Keen enchantment does not rule ranged weapons out, so there's no real reason you can't. The table of randomly generated ranged weapons may not include it, but there's nothing in the rules that disallows it, while there are implications that it would be allowable.

True enough: the lack of it being on the table only indicates that you cannot acquire a keen bow randomly, not that it cannot be made.

[Inhuman Bot]

I've only read the first few posts, but when you say lowering, do you mean a smaller or larger crit range?