Mount or me? (gestalt question)

[Smeggedoff]

ok, I'm creating a character for a game I'm playing in soon and could use a little help if it can be spared.
it's a gestalt game, feats every 2 levels, no dual progression and we're starting at lvl 3
I'm planning on starting with Wizard//Paladin and concentrating on Bow use to go into arcane archer
I'm also planning on taking the familiar mount substitution from the champions of valor web enhancement (lets you nominate your mount as your familiar) and the Theurgic Mount feat from Dragon 325 (lets your arcane and paladin levels stack for determining mount special abilities)

so this leaves me with a few spare feats and levels, should I concentrate on my mounted abilities? drop three feats and go the ranger (with devoted tracker) and beastmaster (with theurgic bond, think theurgic mount but with animal companions) to make my mount more powerful or concentrate on my archery? (or wizardry)
just some general opinions or alternative options would be nice as I'm kind of wishy washy, I've been gently warned that I shouldn't optimise though, as others aren't so I'm not trying to wring every + out of this thing. (wouldn't mind an alternative to beastmaster to get an animal companion though, pity druid's incompatible with Paladin)

(as a very small addendum I'd be interested if Item Familiar could fit in somewhere as I love intelligent items and my DM's offered me a watered down version with no EXP or skill boost)

thanks for taking the time to listen to my rambling, any help would be appreciated.
Cheers

[_Puppetmaster_]

Wasn't there a feat that lets you stack your familiar and mout levels and consider the mount as both? I think it's in Complete Adventurer.


Other than that: Gestalt and a feat every two levels?!

[Smeggedoff]

not that I can find, there's devoted tracker (stacks ranger and paladin levels for mount/animal companion and lets mount act as both and some other perks)

yep, apparantly his group tends to play difficult adventures so some house rules are in play

Spoiler

Show

Basics
Massive damage threshold is equal to double your Con Score, not 50. Furthermore, if you fail a save vs. Massive Damage you are reduced to -1 hp instead of immediately dying.
Creatures die at an amount of hp below 0 equal to their con score.
Permanent Intelligence bonuses now increase Skill points retroactively.
You may exchange a Move action for a Swift action.
Characters gain two ability points every three levels; these must be spent on different abilities.
Characters gain a feat at first level & another feat every two levels after.


Races
All Undead creatures add their Charisma bonus onto their HP in place of their Constitution bonus.

Classes ).
The Soulknife has been replaced with the Heart Shaper.
All Prestige Classes require approval (don't worry, I'll probably allow them, there's simply too many to list the ones I won't approve).
The Class-Based Defence Bonus rules. Furthermore, all characters gain a +1 Dodge bonus to AC per two levels.
Sneak Attack functions within a range of 5ft*Perception modifier, rather than a flat 30ft.

Skills
Cross-Class skills are capped at HD+3, rather than (HD+3)/2.
Synergy Bonuses are +2/5 ranks, not +2/20 over 5.
Spot & Listen are being fused into a single Skill called 'Perception'.
Hide & Move Silently are being Fused into a single Skill called 'Stealth'.
Iajutsu Focus is being replaced by the following Skill Trick.
Quote:
LIGHTNING BLADE [MANIPULATION]
You can draw a weapon (usually a sword) and strike with it in a single, fluid motion.
Prerequisite: Martial Lore 5 ranks, Quick Draw.
Benefit: As part of an attack, you can draw a sheathed weapon and strike a flat-footed opponent for additional damage. Make a Concentration check. On a result of 20 or more, your strike deals +1d6 damage. You deal an additional +1d6 damage for every 5 points by which your check result exceeds 20.

Martial Lore is using these rules.
Lucid Dreaming is using these rules.

Feats
Combat Expertise is no longer limited to +5. As a result, Improved Combat Expertise is now redundant. Also, it now grants AC at a ratio of 2:3 when using a Shield.
Affinity feats (i.e. Alertness, Stealthy, et.) now grant their skills as class skills.

Magic
Spontaneous casters can now use Quicken spell without penalty.
Vorpal & Keen are now +1 stacking enhancements, with both adding one point to either the critical threat range or the critical multiplier of the weapon (i.e. A +1 4x Keen 5x Vorpal Scythe now has a 15-20/x9 Crit rating). Furthermore, Imp. Crit now stacks with Keen (although it does not multiply the increase).
Heighten Spell is no longer capped at 9th level spells.
All Conjuration (Healing) spells are now Necromancy (Healing) spells.

and there are only 2-4 of us so he decided to use the gestalt rule

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not sure if that sort of feat works in Gestalt, or if it does, it's cheese like using Mystic Theurge to give you =1.5 CL/level with Ur-Priest is cheese in non-gestalt.

by Gestalt RAW, I think you're not considered a Paladin 3/Wizard 3 with 3 HD, but a "WizardPaladin" 3 - since gestalt fuses the features of both classes into one, you wouldn't have any arcane caster levels that weren't already also paladin levels, thus gaining no benefit from the feat.

[Ascension]

Wouldn't Theurgic Mount be dual-progression, and therefore banned? Because it looks like you'd be getting double your level in mount abilities that way.

[Smeggedoff]

Theurgic mount is a feat, not a class, sorry I should have made that clear (same for theurgic bond if I take it)

even if it doesn't stack that way in gestalt (wizard6//paladin6 = paladin 12 for the purposes of mount) I'd be happy if it just used the highest of the two (so a wizard 12//paladin6 = paladin12) as I'm planning on going all the way to 20 with wizard and cutting paladin off at 6 to take a prestige class (arcane archer, I'm sticking with paladin to 6 to trade my cure disease in for a celestial mount as per the planar handbook substitution level)

edit
I'll post the feats here to save confusion

Spoiler

Show

Theurgic Bond [General]
you uncover the secrets to connecting more fully with your animal companion or Familiar from studying another type of magic.
Prerequisites:Ability to gain a familiar, ability to gain an animal companion.
Benefit:Choose a familiar or animal companion you already have. when determining the abilities of your chosen familiar or animal companion, you can combine the levels of your spellcasting classes that grant either an animal companion or a familiar. For example, a 4th-level druid/3rd-level sorcerer can grant his familiar all of the abilities that a familiar of a 7th-level sorcerer would normally have.
Special:You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack, each time you gain this feat it applies to a different familiar or animal companion.

Theurgic Mount [General]
your special mount benefits from your arcane knowledge.
Prerequisites:Ability to gain a paladin special mount, ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit:when determining the abilities of your paladin special mount, you can combine the levels of your paladin with the levels of your arcane spellcasting classes. For example, a 5th-level paladin/4th-level sorcerer can grant his paladin special mount abilities as a 9th-level paladin.

[Ascension]

Theurgic mount is a feat, not a class, sorry I should have made that clear (same for theurgic bond if I take it)

Even if it's a feat it's still doubling the progression. I'd ban it if I were your DM.

I will mention, though, on another note... Zen Archery would let you dump DEX, making this MAD build a little less demanding.

[Smeggedoff]

Even if it's a feat it's still doubling the progression. I'd ban it if I were your DM.

I will mention, though, on another note... Zen Archery would let you dump DEX, making this MAD build a little less demanding.

well he's signed off on it as is, and as I said, I'd be happy with an interpretation in which it only let me use my wizard progression to determine my mount abilities

[Cuddly]

Even if it's a feat it's still doubling the progression. I'd ban it if I were your DM.

Why ban it? Due to the way gestalt works, it wouldn't give her anything beyond her max levels in paladin OR wizard. So pal6//wiz6 is only 6 levels of companion. Pal6/Arcane Archer10/X//Wizard20 is 20 levels of companion. Compared to what a gestalt wizard COULD do, I think it's not a big deal. It's basically like having an Archmage from Warcraft III. The fact that he's riding a horse isn't really the problem.

[Smeggedoff]

Why ban it? Due to the way gestalt works, it wouldn't give her anything beyond her max levels in paladin OR wizard. So pal6//wiz6 is only 6 levels of companion. Pal6/Arcane Archer10/X//Wizard20 is 20 levels of companion. Compared to what a gestalt wizard COULD do, I think it's not a big deal. It's basically like having an Archmage from Warcraft III. The fact that he's riding a horse isn't really the problem.

I'm happy for it to work this way, because I'm planning on the exact situation you just described :)

[Smeggedoff]

any actual advice on this?
thanks again

[Jack_Simth]

any actual advice on this?
thanks again

Well, a Sorcerer//paladin has better synergy than a Wizard//paladin - that is, Charisma is a Sorcerer's primary casting stat, and it powers almost all of the Paladin's abilities. The Sorcerer//paladin is somewhat scary in what he can do, and what he can take (d10 HD, two good saves (with a save bonus that makes most saves a "don't roll a 1" scenario.... and Paladins can qualify for the Contemplative PrC (Complete Divine), to get a domain like Pride or Luck that can be used to mitigate the effects of 1's).

Also - you'll want to decide if you're going to be a Paladin//caster or a Caster//paladin.

See, the Paladin, out of the box, has a bad case of MAD - Strength for attack and damage, Con for HP, Wisdom for casting, and Charisma for class abilities (primarily Lay on of Hands, Divine Grace, and Smite). Putting levels of Wizard into the mix makes it worse (Int for casting), although adding Sorcerer into the mix doesn't (Charisma is already on the list of needed abilities). However, if you're putting an Arcane caster into the Paladin's mix, if you're playing as a Paladin, you've got problems - Arcane Spell Failure means you're not using your armor proficiency; Still Spell means you're losing a feat. Compared to a "normal" Paladin, your AC will likely be quite low. If you're going this route, you need to focus on stuff that has a long duration (so you can take your armor off, then cast, then put your armor on), or stuff that doesn't have Somatic components to suffer from ASF (Dimension Door, True Strike, Featherfall, and so on).

However, if you play the character as a Caster first, and look at the Paladin goodies as extras, you can hang in the back, dump the armor, and put less into Con than you normally would as a caster (you get a good Fort save "for free", and you have a bigger hit die), focusing just on your primary casting stat and a bit of Dex for the Reflex saves and AC.

As you want to go with a ranged character, Caster first is probably the stronger of the two options (and is supported by your plan to put Arcane Archer on one side of the progression).

Check with your DM - does your mount's special abilities include the bonus hit dice? This is kinda important. If it doesn't, your mount will be primarily a waste of space at mid+ levels. If it does, your mount maintains usefulness for quite some time.

If you're going without armor, I'd suggest something along the lines of...

Sorcerer-X//Paladin-5 (for Mount)/Monk-2 (yes, Monk, I'll explain)/Arcane Archer-X (for Imbue Arrow)/Contemplative-1 (Contemplative can be anywhere in the build after level 10)

Contemplative-1 gets you a domain - Pride is about the best choice for this (you're after the Domain power, not the spells), but Luck is a decent second - you want to minimize the chance that you'll roll a 1, because that's about all that'll get through.

You take Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer, page 105), which (among a handful of other, melee-oriented and less useful things) makes your Wis to AC key off of Charisma instead of Wisdom. You skip out on armor entirely (it tends to interfere with casting anyway), except for Mage Armor, Greater Mage Armor, and possibly Bracers of Armor.

At 7th, you've got:
5d10+2d8 hit dice
Charisma to AC (and a +1 bonus to it)
Charisma-based spellcasting
Charisma to saves
Evasion
Full Spellcasting.
+6 BAB.

[Smeggedoff]

That's fairly awesome, I was originally shying away from sorcerer due to the fact we have an artificer in the party (any scroll of any spell you say? let me get my spellbook) and because of the high one warrior wizard substitution level "Familiar mount" (faerun Champions of Valor web enhancement) that lets you designate your familiar as your mount with all the special abilities that entails (a bid bad dire wolf to deliver my touch spells? hallelujah) but reduction of MAD would be helpful, as would the spontaneous spellcasting I guess

the armour problem is lessened somewhat by the use of the class defense bonus, as long as I have one level of paladin and wear no armour I get an AC bonus dependant on my level (+7 at lvl 1 +12 at lvl 20)

and my DM does count hit dice as a special mount ability

the only problem with getting hold of the pride domain is which gods have it, I was going to go with Odin who, while having an impressive list of domains, has neither pride nor luck. but I'll look through the faerunian pantheons tonight (any god from any setting is allowed)

you've given me a lot to chew on, many thanks :)
edit:
Can't find the Pride domain anywhere, or any gods who have it, can anyone point me in the right direction? cheers

[Jack_Simth]

That's fairly awesome, I was originally shying away from sorcerer due to the fact we have an artificer in the party (any scroll of any spell you say? let me get my spellbook)

Technically, Artificer scrolls are not arcane scrolls, so you can't scribe them into your spellbook - which is a pity (although if you collaborate with the artificer, and designate yourself as the creator, then they are ... but you're paying the XP to do it that way).

However, under Magic-Psionics transparency, Limited Wish will let the Sorcerer change his spells known for the last six levels (top three spell levels, usually) by way of duplicating Psychic Reformation ... in one standard action, at the cost of 300 xp and a 7th level spell slot.

and because of the high one warrior wizard substitution level "Familiar mount" (faerun Champions of Valor web enhancement) that lets you designate your familiar as your mount with all the special abilities that entails (a bid bad dire wolf to deliver my touch spells? hallelujah) but reduction of MAD would be helpful, as would the spontaneous spellcasting I guess

You're welcome.

Oh, and before I forget - be sure to ask the DM how he handles multiclassing penalties. If he uses them, you might want to look through the other Ascetic feats, and keep the Paladin and Monk levels within one of each other throughout the progression. Doesn't change too much, but it's something to think about.

the armour problem is lessened somewhat by the use of the class defense bonus, as long as I have one level of paladin and wear no armour I get an AC bonus dependant on my level (+7 at lvl 1 +12 at lvl 20)

Which stacks with the Monk bonus, no?

and my DM does count hit dice as a special mount ability

Nifty.

the only problem with getting hold of the pride domain is which gods have it, I was going to go with Odin who, while having an impressive list of domains, has neither pride nor luck. but I'll look through the faerunian pantheons tonight (any god from any setting is allowed)

you've given me a lot to chew on, many thanks :)
edit:
Can't find the Pride domain anywhere, or any gods who have it, can anyone point me in the right direction? cheers

Fun to have Realm's Help handy....

Human Pantheon: Helm (LN), Nobanion (LG), Siamorphe (LN), Torm (LG), Tyr (LG), Sune (CG, but she takes Paladins)
Elven Pantheon:... there aren't any within one step of LG, but Corellon Larethian and Shevarash get it.

A human or a half-elf should, in theory, be able to pick it up by way of Nobanion or Torm without stretching things (and the half-elf still qualifies for Arcane Archer).

[Smeggedoff]

Technically, Artificer scrolls are not arcane scrolls, so you can't scribe them into your spellbook - which is a pity (although if you collaborate with the artificer, and designate yourself as the creator, then they are ... but you're paying the XP to do it that way).

bummer

However, under Magic-Psionics transparency, Limited Wish will let the Sorcerer change his spells known for the last six levels (top three spell levels, usually) by way of duplicating Psychic Reformation ... in one standard action, at the cost of 300 xp and a 7th level spell slot.

ok, ta :)

Oh, and before I forget - be sure to ask the DM how he handles multiclassing penalties. If he uses them, you might want to look through the other Ascetic feats, and keep the Paladin and Monk levels within one of each other throughout the progression. Doesn't change too much, but it's something to think about.

he doesn't, he ruled that multiclassing penalties don't occur in Gestalt to keep things simple-ish

Which stacks with the Monk bonus, no?

yep, I wasn't complaining, I was just pointing it out when you said I wouldn't be able to play it as a paladin because of lack of armour

Fun to have Realm's Help handy....

Human Pantheon: Helm (LN), Nobanion (LG), Siamorphe (LN), Torm (LG), Tyr (LG), Sune (CG, but she takes Paladins)
Elven Pantheon:... there aren't any within one step of LG, but Corellon Larethian and Shevarash get it.

A human or a half-elf should, in theory, be able to pick it up by way of Nobanion or Torm without stretching things (and the half-elf still qualifies for Arcane Archer).

ah, hang on, these would be the domains from Dragon Magazine yes? I remember that one, cool.
unfortunately the magazine doesn't list gods from "deities and demigods" I'll have to try and convince him that Odin's prideful
oh, and the limitation to elf or half elf doesn't occur in this case, my DM nixes race requirements unless he feels there's a good reason for them to be there

Thanks again, you've been a big help, I'll discuss some of this with my DM tonight