Positive Energy Reanimation? Do the Undying make sense?

[Kaihaku]

This is something that has bothered me for awhile though it was the 'vampire' thread that inspired me to actually address it.

Positive energy heals wounds and can even resurrect the dead. It is pure undiluted life force?

Negative energy is the opposite of positive energy. It inflicts injury and can reanimate the dead. It is pure undiluted death?

So, given the nature of positive energy, how can you have 'positive energy' undead and have it make any sense? Why would 'positive energy' reanimated corpses be anything other than living?

[monty]

They aren't undead. They're deathless. They're different from normal creatures because they're literally made of positive energy, rather than simply thriving on it.

[Kaihaku]

Deathless... Okay... How are the "Deathless" different from the "Undead" aside from the whole vague powered by positive energy? Why are their bodies gaunt? If they are powered by pure life force, why aren't they perfect living specimens?

[Eldariel]

They're some ridiculous attempt to have the "two sides of a coin" for everything. Just like Ravages and Afflictions. Don't take 'em seriously (this goes for much of Book of Exalted Deeds - the only reason the "good" thing is even needed is because something that isn't evil is inexplically classified as evil). They're meant for little more than comic relief.

[Spiryt]

It seems that being of pure positive energy can't exist normally.

In other words, this whole life is harmful. The more of it you have - the worse.
I always thought so.

[BobVosh]

Because they don't have bodies. Just energy. Even life energy isn't alive. Or something.

[monty]

Deathless... Okay... How are the "Deathless" different from the "Undead" aside from the whole vague powered by positive energy? Why are their bodies gaunt? If they are powered by pure life force, why aren't they perfect living specimens?

Deathless are the opposite of undead. Just like death is the opposite of life, undead are beyond death and deathless are beyond life. They aren't perfect because they aren't living.

[Lemur]

"Make sense"? What's that? Oh, you mean like perception checks. Sure, the Undying can make spot and listen checks like everyone else.

You had me confused for a moment there. I don't usually think about things "making sense" in D&D. ;)

[Kaihaku]

Deathless are the opposite of undead. Just like death is the opposite of life, undead are beyond death and deathless are beyond life. They aren't perfect because they aren't living.

Reanimated corspes are "beyond life" but not "beyond death"? Why aren't they called "Lifeless" then?

Another thing...
Why are the Inflict spells Necromancy? The Cure spells were made Conjuration(Positive Energy) to explain why Wizards couldn't cast them (only gods can provide 'new' hitpoints). Necromacy is the manipulation of life energy, so it works with existing life force in a system. Since the Inflict spells are identical to the Cure spells they should be Conjuration(Negative Energy) bringing negative energy into a system.

[jcsw]

I thought they were Conj(Healing) because you were conjuring new skin, flesh, veins etc where they were missing...

[Eldariel]

Inflict-spells are probably necromancy 'cause they, y'know, destroy lifeforce... As you can spontaneously convert them, they can be little more than channeling negative energy.

[MeklorIlavator]

I think originally, it was because both lines were in Necromancy, but Wizards apparently felt it Necromancy y should be the Evil school, so moved the spells, with the argument that the healing spells are conjuration positive energy. Of course, that doesn't explain why the inflict spells aren't in conjuration as well. In fact, most of the spells in Necromancy would fit into the Conjuration school with that argument, so its pretty much "because they said so", just like a lot of things. Like why undead are evil, why mind raping/dominating someone isn't, etc.

[Pronounceable]

"Make sense"? What's that? Oh, you mean like perception checks. Sure, the Undying can make spot and listen checks like everyone else.

You had me confused for a moment there. I don't usually think about things "making sense" in D&D. ;)

Quoted for universal applicability.

[Ravens_cry]

From what I understand, a Strong Positive plane is just as dangerous as a Strong Negative Plane. Someone said that if negative energy is decay, then positive energy is cancer. The only thing I see that would make an intelligent undead explicitly evil is the immortality. After a while, this changes your perspective, the concerns of the short lived living are as dust, to be carried away by the next wind. And since there concerns don't matter, what does it matter what happens to them. Oh they may make some noise, but they don't really have the. . . perspective an undead does. Who cares if a few die, there will always be more.
This immortality is something the 'deathless' share, no?
Then the deathless, would also be evil, no matter what 'powers' them.

[Kaihaku]

Inflict-spells are probably necromancy 'cause they, y'know, destroy lifeforce... As you can spontaneously convert them, they can be little more than channeling negative energy.

Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you, actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane, heal, transport creatures or objects over great distances, or create objects or effects on the spot. Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

"Conjurations bring...some form of energy to you" sounds a lot like channeling energy.

Necromancy
Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school.

Necromancy is about manipulation, not channeling. It's the wrong school but, yeah, I guess they wanted an "evil" school and splitting up the negative energy spells would have hindered that.

[sonofzeal]

From what I understand, a Strong Positive plane is just as dangerous as a Strong Negative Plane.

Death by Awesome!

[AslanCross]

It seems that being of pure positive energy can't exist normally.

In other words, this whole life is harmful. The more of it you have - the worse.
I always thought so.

There's actually an Elder Evil in the Elder Evils book that is full of unfettered positive energy. Basically it causes things to evolve and grow so fast they explode. It comes to the material plane as a meteor, blows up, and rains down its giblets across the entire world. Each of these is so full of positive energy that it begins growing and seeking the main mass.

The bloody thing is hideous too.

[Turcano]

From what I understand, a Strong Positive plane is just as dangerous as a Strong Negative Plane.

Specifically, you constantly gain temporary hitpoints and when they exceed your maximum, you make a Fort save every round or you go kablooie.

[Ravens_cry]

Specifically, you constantly gain temporary hitpoints and when they exceed your maximum, you make a Fort save every round or you go kablooie.

The gross question is, what happens to your remains? Do they simply rot faster then normal? Or do the giblets keep wiggling and jiggling, after 'you' are gone, constantly rejuvenated by the positive energy?

[sonofzeal]

The gross question is, what happens to your remains? Do they simply rot faster then normal? Or do the giblets keep wiggling and jiggling, after 'you' are gone, constantly rejuvenated by the positive energy?

......have you seen the movie "Beyond Reanimator"? There's a scene towards the end which is basically exactly how I imagine this happening. Basically, there's this serum which brings people back from the dead, plus or minus their soul/sanity. Towards the end, a compulsive junkie gets a hold of a big stash of the stuff, and starts injecting himself with it all over the place. After three or four doses, he explodes - face totally gone, chest cavity blown open, the works - and is still bouncing around demanding more in his annoyingly cheerful voice.

[Kurald Galain]

So, given the nature of positive energy, how can you have 'positive energy' undead and have it make any sense?

You can't. It's a stupid concept that was done as padding for a quite ludicrously written "moral" rulebook. I'd suggest ignoring this particular book. I mean, bit.

[Heliomance]

The gross question is, what happens to your remains? Do they simply rot faster then normal? Or do the giblets keep wiggling and jiggling, after 'you' are gone, constantly rejuvenated by the positive energy

What remains? They way I see it, you explode into a shower of sparks, body completely consumed.

[Tempest Fennac]

I was having a conversation with a friend about the healing spells and Necromancy, and I agreed with them deciding that Evocation would be the best school for the Inflict and Cure spells due to how they are both basically energy manipulation (most of the other healing spells, excluding Regenerate and the Raise Dead line should ideally be Evocation as well in my opinion).

[Evil DM Mark3]

Deathless can work, if you make sure they fit into the setting. Giving them gaunt appearance if right out but they work very well for "return to protect those how come after you" style entities. I infact prefer them in certain situations but the original Deathless we where given are a bad joke.

[Kurald Galain]

I was having a conversation with a friend about the healing spells and Necromancy, and I agreed with them deciding that Evocation would be the best school

Interesting. I could also argue that Transmutation would be the fitting school, since you're actually altering a body by mending the wounds.

Bottom line is that necromancy really doesn't belong in the line of schools, since it's the only one that classifies things by effect ("anything related to death, undead, or generic evilness") rather than cause. And yes, the only reason why healing was removed from necromancy is that "healing = good, necromancy = evil".

Second bottom line is that "healing" is traditionally forbidden to wizards (in D&D, if nowhere else) but otherwise could have been the eighth school (since transmutation is big enough already - it could be split in life vs. matter; this is especially true if you look at the breadth of 2.0 or 3.0 transmutation).

[Tempest Fennac]

I thought that as well about Transmutation, Kurald (I then changed my mind after my initially pro-Necromancy=healing fruend suggested using Evocation). I'll look into 2nd Edition Transmutation later thanks.

[Kaihaku]

Well, it depends on what hitpoints represent...

If hitpoints represent physical injury then the current rules don't make much sense and transmutation(polymorph) spells should restore hitpoints to full, every time.

If hitpoints represent a loss of life force then the current rules don't make much sense and conjuring fresh positive energy or life force into a being should heal them.

If hitpoints represent physical injury and a loss of life force then the current rules don't make much sense and...um...the whole things a mess.

[Tempest Fennac]

I always saw HP loss as physical injury. I tend to think that the idea of physical injuries staying with someone who changes form makes sense, but I know Wildshape restores some HPs when the Druid shifts for some reason.

[Kaihaku]

If hitpoints are physical injury then changing your physical form on an atomic level should wipe away physical injury. If Polymorph Any Object can transform anything into anything else why can't the caster take the form of an unwounded human? It doesn't make any sense that transmutation can mend broken items but not wounded flesh if hitpoints represent only physical injury. Personally, I think hitpoints probably should only represent physical injury but I don't think that they do.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point. I'm assuming that the idea is that injuries are harder to remove as far as changing form goes.