Invisible Blade weapons question

[graymachine]

I'm building an Invisible Blade, which are required to use daggers or dagger-like weapons. I built the character using Elven Lightblades out of Complete Adventurer. They have 1d6 as their damage die and a threat range of 18-20, as well as a description that says they are roughly shortsword sized with the weight and feel of a dagger. I haven't cleared this weapon choice with the DM yet, but I was wanting to find out if this seems like a reasonable idea first.

Also, can anyone think of other dagger-like weapons, aside from the kukri, that have a high crit range?

[sonofzeal]

Kukri's about it, but Elven Lightblade is totally reasonable.

Note that you're probably going to get a lot of people here who recommend strongly against IB, and Feinting in general. ALSO note that a Psionic Tattoo of Conceal Thoughts will give you a massive bonus on your Bluff check to feint for an hour, and can actually make the whole technique highly effective. It's a 1st level power, so the tattoo only costs 50 gp and can be used by any character whether psionic or not.

[mangosta71]

The elven lightblade is a lot closer to a fencing foil than it is to a dagger. Also worth noting - the Invisible Blade PrC is in the same book that introduced the elven weapons, but does not include them in the IB's prerequisites or abilities. So don't be surprised if your DM rules them out. Be prepared to pick up a pair of kukris instead.

I second ignoring the people that will bash IB. A lot of posters here care more about optimizing (ie power-gaming) than they do about RP.

[sonofzeal]

I second ignoring the people that will bash IB. A lot of posters here care more about optimizing (ie power-gaming) than they do about RP.

It's not just that. You can get exactly the same RP out of Swordsages, Swashbucklers, or dexterous Fighters if you wished. What I'm saying is that, properly handled, the class can actually hold its own. ToB would make it BETTER of course, but a properly built IB can be a terrifying and lethal force on the battlefield.

[arguskos]

I think that using the Elvish Lightblades is probably pushing it, but if you spin a good RP case to your DM, it'll work.

As for other weapons... The Arms and Equipment Guide is your friend

-The Sapara (basically, a smaller khopesh): deals 1d6, 19-20/x2, can trip, is an exotic weapon.

-The Triple Dagger: just like a dagger, but can be used to disarm people w/ a +3. Is an exotic weapon.

I really like using a pair of daggers, one of which is a triple dagger, just so you can disarm then slice-and-dice them into cubes.

-argus

[mangosta71]

It's not just that. You can get exactly the same RP out of Swordsages, Swashbucklers, or dexterous Fighters if you wished. What I'm saying is that, properly handled, the class can actually hold its own. ToB would make it BETTER of course, but a properly built IB can be a terrifying and lethal force on the battlefield.

I was actually more referring to those who will tell the OP that he should take caster levels because they will make the character more powerful. Sometimes, it's just FUN to be pure melee, even if the character is less powerful as a result.

[graymachine]

Well, as for Feinting, in 2 levels I'll be able to feint as a free action each round with a 38 (taking 10 +28) with two (hopefully) elven lightblades doing 1d6+1+1d6(fire)+1d6(cold)+1d6(electric)+5d6(sneak att.) with a crit range of 15-20. So, I'm pretty concerned about keeping the (original) crit range of 18-20, which the kukri have, but with a painful downgrade in damage die.

[NEO|Phyte]

Well, as for Feinting, in 2 levels I'll be able to feint as a free action each round with a 38 (taking 10 +28) with two (hopefully) elven lightblades doing 1d6+1+1d6(fire)+1d6(cold)+1d6(electric)+5d6(sneak att.) with a crit range of 15-20. So, I'm pretty concerned about keeping the (original) crit range of 18-20, which the kukri have, but with a painful downgrade in damage die.

Going from 1d6 to 1d4 in base damage is hardly painful. It's an average of what, 1 damage less?
Also, IB has been eratta'd such that you can only free action feint once a round, so don't depend TOO much on it for your SA damage.

[sonofzeal]

There's a feat from Drow of the Underdark to get your full-round-sneak goodness back, but most DMs I know have been willing to ignore the whole errata in the first place. It's a stupid rule that doesn't fix any problems and only nerfs the few characters who actually invest the time and class levels to making their Feint decent.

[Fax Celestis]

Pathfinder's got a weapon called a "starknife", which is my new favorite "weapon that shouldn't really work if we had physics, but it's neat so let's keep it" weapon. 1d4 damage (1d3 small), 20/x4 crit.

[sonofzeal]

Pathfinder's got a weapon called a "starknife", which is my new favorite "weapon that shouldn't really work if we had physics, but it's neat so let's keep it" weapon. 1d4 damage (1d3 small), 20/x4 crit.

*googles*

....oh dear lord. Uh, that's certainly "special" all right. Tell you what, why not use those stats but call it, oh I don't know.... deerhorn daggers? Real weapons, actually effective in a fight, just as badass, and makes sense for those stats.

[arguskos]

Because starknives (is that the correct plural?) are more awesome?

-argus

[Person_Man]

I suggest that you just use a dagger, because you can throw it. You can't throw a kukri or similar weapons. Sneak Attack isn't multiplied by a critical hit, so Keen effects offer very little additional damage.

Here is the invisible blade that the author intended. For some bizarre reason, the WotC editors chopped it down to 5 levels.

If you use the 5 level RAW version, as others have mentioned it is nerfed it in the errata, but fixed by the Surprising Riposte feat from Drow of the Underdark.

[Epinephrine]

I suggest that you just use a dagger, because you can throw it. You can't throw a kukri or similar weapons. Sneak Attack isn't multiplied by a critical hit, so Keen effects offer very little additional damage.

I can't agree more. Keen on a low damage weapon with bonus damage coming from dice (sneak attack, flaming, etc.) is next to pointless.

Keen on a big damage die two handed weapon with a big strength bonus, that's worth looking at.

[sonofzeal]

Because starknives (is that the correct plural?) are more awesome?

-argus

More awesome than a weapon with five cutting edges and four major spikes?

I mean, the thing is practically Spikes of Villainy incarnate.

[graymachine]

Going from 1d6 to 1d4 in base damage is hardly painful. It's an average of what, 1 damage less?
Also, IB has been eratta'd such that you can only free action feint once a round, so don't depend TOO much on it for your SA damage.

Well, any damage loss is to be avoided, but yeah.

Huh, I didn't know about the errata, but I had assumed that it operated like that. However, I have the skill trick to make an opponent lose all AoO against me when I feint and will be taking the skill trick to feint everyone that can see me once per combat. So, I'm thinking that feint will serve me well.

[edit] Don't have keen; have improved crit. I know it's usually the poorer choice, but I didn't feel like paying to enchant a bandoleer of "knives" with a +2 [/edit]

[arguskos]

More awesome than a weapon with five cutting edges and four major spikes?

I mean, the thing is practically Spikes of Villainy incarnate.

I just like the starknife damnit! It's up there with my favorite physics-defying weapons of all time (like the gyrspike from Arms and Equipment Guide, or the spiked chain, not for defying physics, but for being HILARIOUS).

You and your damn logic.

-argus

[sonofzeal]

I just like the starknife damnit! It's up there with my favorite physics-defying weapons of all time (like the gyrspike from Arms and Equipment Guide, or the spiked chain, not for defying physics, but for being HILARIOUS).

You and your damn logic.

-argus

Ah. Well, physics-defying is cool too, I just wish the starknife didn't remind me so much of Naruto.

Yay for links. =3


Back on topic, you're right that Keen is rather a waste here... except that there's a feat that lets you add Sneak every time that you score a crit. Less useful for you, since with Feinting you have a reliable method of manufacturing Sneaks, but still worth thinking about.

[arguskos]

Ah. Well, physics-defying is cool too, I just wish the starknife didn't remind me so much of Naruto.

Yay for links. =3


Back on topic, you're right that Keen is rather a waste here... except that there's a feat that lets you add Sneak every time that you score a crit. Less useful for you, since with Feinting you have a reliable method of manufacturing Sneaks, but still worth thinking about.

First, yay Maiev! Love the Warden weaponry.

Second.... ewwww I didn't realize Naruto had something like that. I feel sad now.

Third, yeah... on topic, I still think an Invisible Blade that used a dagger and a triple dagger could be really fun. Esp from the idea that he was a pit fighter, since disarming his opponent in the pit would be brutal.

-argus

[Fax Celestis]

Guess what's worse?

The starknife has a range increment.

[arguskos]

Guess what's worse?

The starknife has a range increment.

I know. I'm using one as my sorcerer's back up weapon in the Pathfinder Beta I'm a part of here on the forum.

SO PHYSICS DEFYING. OMG, MY HEAD SPINS.

-argus

[graymachine]

Is it a blunder to try and rely on alchemy? I'm using a bandoleer of "knives" because my +1d6(fire), +1d6(cold), +1d6(electric) is coming from the triple weapon capsules out of CoA, which take a full round to refill after one use. With my alchemy skill they are easy and cheap to make, effectively saving me from paying for a +4 enchantment on two weapons. I used my savings to also put Thundering on my first to "knives."

[AstralFire]

Is it a blunder to try and rely on alchemy?

Past about level 3-5, yes.

Sadly. Losing actions to get a static benefit to damage for one round is only good for so long.

[graymachine]

Past about level 3-5, yes.

Sadly. Losing actions to get a static benefit to damage for one round is only good for so long.

Ah, true, but I have a mess of prepared doses and, a bandoleer of knives already dosed. The basic idea is to sneak attack, drop knives, draw a new pair, repeat.

[Epinephrine]

Wow, that starknife made me flashback to the Glaive in the movie Krull.

[Fax Celestis]

Ah, true, but I have a mess of prepared doses and, a bandoleer of knives already dosed. The basic idea is to sneak attack, drop knives, draw a new pair, repeat.

After 5th level, switch from alchemicals to poisons and positoxins. There's some really good ones in Comp. Adventurer and Comp. Scoundrel, and some ZOMGWTF ones in Dungeonscape.

[Ascension]

Wow, that starknife made me flashback to the Glaive in the movie Krull.

That is not a glaive! *facepalm*

[AstralFire]

Ah, true, but I have a mess of prepared doses and, a bandoleer of knives already dosed. The basic idea is to sneak attack, drop knives, draw a new pair, repeat.

One thing I did for a rogue player with throwing knives* once was give him a bandolier that essentially functioned as a bow would for an archer. I've also spoke of doing similar with gloves.

You may wish to ask your DM to do the same.

* He actually loathed ranged combat and had the ranged combat flaw since I took over from a DM who allowed them, but was scared to freakin' death of getting within 5 feet on anyone to stab them unless he was stealthed while the other 5 people in the party were wailing on the same guy. My preference for brawls in the open daylight with lots of individual targets to take on at a given time kind of ruined that for him.

That is not a glaive! *facepalm*

One meaning for glaive is apparently 'blade', which is the justification for 'Twin Glaives of Azzinoth':



Really, I think it's just that half the people don't bother to look up what a glaive IS.

[mangosta71]

Back on topic, I really don't see elven thinblades working on a bandoleer. If they're the size of a shortsword, they're roughly 24-30 inches long.

[Person_Man]

Is it a blunder to try and rely on alchemy? I'm using a bandoleer of "knives" because my +1d6(fire), +1d6(cold), +1d6(electric) is coming from the triple weapon capsules out of CoA, which take a full round to refill after one use. With my alchemy skill they are easy and cheap to make, effectively saving me from paying for a +4 enchantment on two weapons. I used my savings to also put Thundering on my first to "knives."

Well, if your DM is hand waving away the time it takes to make alchemical items, and the cost is negligible, then I'd say no. Load up 20 different daggers, each with different alchemical properties. Take Quickdraw. Use dagger, drop, repeat.

In the long run though it will be cheaper to just invest in two good magical daggers. But I don't know how long your campaign is running for.