[3.5] Nastiest monster in the game (for its CR)

[ken-do-nim]

So what do you think is the most underrated monster CR-wise? My vote is the Spell Weaver from MMII. Inexplicably listed at CR 10, this critter can cast as a sorcerer 12, fire multiple spells at a time, and has a few spell-like abilities to boot. I used one in a play-by-email game and it was plenty tough. I assigned it CR14 when all was said and done. Runner-up is the Malebranche devil from the same book. CR9 ... and yet it has 16 hit dice and is just really tough. CR12 at least.

[Fax Celestis]

Three words:

That.
Damn.
Crab.

Don't MAKE me resurrect some threads.

[BRC]

TDC
Hydras in general

In certain situations, Zombies,especially ones with the "unkillable" template from Libris Mortis (It gives them an additionalfew HP per HD, as well as Fast healing five. Considering how many HD a, for example, CR3 zombie has. It is a truely massive amount.
Albiet, this is negated by the fact that a zombie is incapable of doing anything to somebody armed with a glaive and enough room behind them
(Five foot step, attack. You arn't far enough away for the zombie to charge. Although this tactic is negated by walls)

[Ponce]

Shadows and superior versions thereof.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

From my personal experience, a Tsochar. It's a CR 4 and it almost took out eight CR 7 players.

4 tentacles, paralyzing poison, constrict, and can burrow right inside and take you over so they have to kill its host to get it out.

[Teron]

The adamantine horror certainly ranks. The fact that there's only one in existence apparently justifies its ability to use disintegrate, implosion and Mordenkainen's goddamn disjunction at will at CR 9!

[_Puppetmaster_]

Adamantine. Clockwork. Horror. *Cringes and hides in a corner*


Mordrenkanens's Dinsunction at will for CR 11 9??!!! Youve got to be kidding me!

EDIT: Ninja'd! ...Still...

[Eldariel]

Three words:

That.
Damn.
Crab.

Don't MAKE me resurrect some threads.

This. It's supposed to be a tough fight for 4 level 1 characters, but it's a TPK on legs for those. It's supposed to be 25%-dailies for 4 level 3 characters. It's a kill-two for those.

Also, older Dragons. And Fleshrakers. Beholders and breathing Hydras can be problematic too - they're squishy, but they pack the firepower of a small army (imagine a Beholder getting a surprise round with all it's eye stalks directed at the party, or a cryohydra getting the drop on the party and opening up with full breath).

Then there's that whatever high CR ethereal cloud thing that's almost impossible to detect, has 24d8 thunderclap to open up with and some 1000 HP. CR 16s. But yea, the party pretty much opens up by taking 24d8 points of damage (an average of 108 points) and then roll for initiative.

Then there's that one CR 8 incorporeal thingy that tosses greater darkness, grapples you (as a touch, obv) with insane initiative and rips you apart through your armor. I think it was in BoVD or something.

[Nohwl]

can you use their actual names? i know what zombies are and what hydras are, but ive got no clue what creature that damn crab refers to.

[UglyPanda]

The CR 2 Fleshraker Dinosaur should get a mention. On a charge, it can hit you up to four times. Plus it can poison, trip, and grapple you in that order. What makes it worse is that it's a possible animal companion.

Of course, That Damn Crab and all its permutations is probably the worst. For the uninitiated, here's the permutations: link

[BRC]

can you use their actual names? i know what zombies are and what hydras are, but ive got no clue what creature that damn crab refers to.

SHHHH, you don't speak it's name. It's like saying the name of the Scottish Play in a theatre. According to legend, if you say it's true name, your DM uses it against you next session.
@V ah well, you said it. I reccomend you buy some verminbane arrows.

[Eldariel]

Monstrous Crab

As for the other two creatures, I can't remember and can't even remember the books they're from for sure - am hoping someone else recognizes them (I was a player when we met those, their name was hardly the first thing in my mind - not getting TPKd took priority).

[Nohwl]

According to legend, if you say it's true name, your DM uses it against you next session.

im the dm. there are 7 of them and they are level 2. hmm...

[Hal]

Anything with DR/anything but magic until you get to mid levels.

[BRC]

Anything with DR/anything but magic until you get to mid levels.

Yeah, I know my group has never spent money on Cold Iron and Silver weapons Just in case.

[AstralFire]

I've always been of the opinion that special material/alignment damage reduction should be reserved for campaigns where you get MacGuffin (or at the very least Plot Token) weapons. Can't fight those Succubi? Well, NOW YOU'RE PACKING HEAT! And the Master Sword! Whooo!

Makes those weapons actually feel special instead of the golf club bag effect, which is the only way I ever really see those DRs get handled.

[Jack Zander]

The monstrous crab is only tough if the DM plays it wrong. They are suppose to only grab two characters then flee with them (one in each claw), but most people forget that grappling with one hand gives you a -20 penalty to the grapple check.

[Thurbane]

Ogres can often be quite lethal to an unprepared 3rd level party.

[Eldariel]

Ogres can often be quite lethal to an unprepared 3rd level party.

Those are usually tough for a party without Wizards. However, any of the list:
-Color Spray
-Sleep
-Glitterdust
-Grease
-Web (the usual spells a Wizard on these levels should be preparing)

cramps their style pretty big. Druids and Clerics are slightly less effective, but they still pack Entangle, Command (command it to drop Prone) and Cause Fear to drop their numbers. In fact, most 'brutes' tend to be very easy to bring down through Magic (especially if they're packed - one Glitterdust can knock the whole bunch of 'em blind) - That Damn Crab sidesteps this by being a Vermin and immune to most mind-affecting things and having a decent Ref-save.

[sonofzeal]

From my personal experience, a Tsochar. It's a CR 4 and it almost took out eight CR 7 players.

4 tentacles, paralyzing poison, constrict, and can burrow right inside and take you over so they have to kill its host to get it out.

I'll second that nomination. Thoroughly nasty buggers, almost impossible to kill and more than lethal enough in the mean time, even without bodystealing. It's right up there in TDC territory, really.

Rakshasa, TDC, Marulurks, and Maugs also deserve a mention to various amounts.

[AstralFire]

Eldariel is like a stealthy, radar-absorbing heat seeking cruise missile of optimization.

You scroll quickly down the page, not realizing someone new posted due to the lack of avatar - and then SPLOOOOOSH. Information bomb, right in the cranial cortex.

[Eldariel]

You know Astral, I'm fervently against ego sigs. And yet, I'm almost, almost willing to give way in the principle just so I could immortalize that. I thank Thee; the words are strong in you. Although I may yet have to change the "no avatar"-part...

[JaxGaret]

Tucker's Kobolds

/thread

[Eldariel]

Tucker's Kobolds

/thread

I thought their CR was higher than numeric notation can show...

[BRC]

I thought their CR was higher than numeric notation can show...

CR is, in general, a horrible representation of the difficulty of an encounter. I'm sure it's fine if everything takes place on an infinite flat featureless plane, but things don't.

For example, A group of 4 1st level rangers with longbows, dosn't seem that tough (The SRD isn't working for me right now), but if those rangers ambush the PC's who are out in the open while they hide behind rocks a hundred and fifty feet away (If i remember correctly, thats within one range increment for a longbow), that is a very difficult encounter.

[drengnikrafe]

If I remember correctly, the Iron Colosses (sp?) has a DR 50ish, magic resistance, no weak spots, and thousands of health. It's a little overpowered for it's CR (which is 20ish, but still...).

Also, Beholders. It's not nice to make PCs make 2 save or dies a round, and then prevent them from using magic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Keep in mind that monsters in the MM2 and Fiend Folio of CR 5+ were designed to go against a party with 3.0 Haste. The entire party can cast two spells/round, so the monster has to be able to compete with that.


A Boneclaw (MM3) is unbelievably deadly, especially in the right/wrong situation depending on your perspective.

Many advanced versions of monsters are unbelievably difficult for their CRs. A 22 HD Boneclaw would only be CR 8, and would get an extra +6 to hit, over twice the HP, impossible to turn, and can have feats like Large and In Charge (DCN) and Awesome Blow. Put it in difficult terrain (atop a hill of bones?) in a room where it can reach everyone who would have LoS to it and nobody at that level could defeat it.

Ibrandlin from Monsters of Faerun is a 10 HD Gargantuan Dragon at CR 5. Without using its Power Attack feat it gets Bite +18 (4d6+12) and 4 Claws +13 (2d8+6), or once every 5 rounds 4 Claws +18 (2d8+12) and a 30' cone of fire breath attack for 2d6 damage as a single full attack. The reason it swings with all four claws is because it rears up on its tail. It can also pin as many medium or smaller opponents as can fit in its space by jumping onto them as a standard action, they have to make a DC 21 Reflex save or be considered both grappled and pinned, they automatically take 4d6 damage in any round that they try to escape or fight (it gets +34 grapple) but don't take damage if they just lie still and be pinned. It has a Climb speed and +22 jump so it's sure to start the encounter by pinning as many as it can. It can use a bite and two claws each round against anyone not pinned, then get up and either finish off or re-pin everyone who's left. At CR 5 that's just too cruel to use.


TDC isn't a difficult opponent at all. A level 20 Charger Gish build with Superior Invisibility (SC), Quickened True Strike, and Persistent Wraithstrike should be able to take it out in a single hit. He'll use Moment of Prescience to win initiative, and it can't AoO due to invisibility. Its touch AC is only 48, he'll get +16 BAB (Shock Trooper), +20 True Strike, +5 Enhancement (GMW), +2 charging, plus his Str bonus. He can have an ally nearby with the Destiny domain (RoD) in case he rolls a 1.

[UglyPanda]

If I remember correctly, the Iron Colosses (sp?) has a DR 50ish, magic resistance, no weak spots, and thousands of health. It's a little overpowered for it's CR (which is 20ish, but still...).

...stuff

Colossi were in the Epic Level Handbook. They had DR of at least 30/+6, and were all at over CR 23. Epic Level Handbook is 3.0, which had insanely high DR monsters for some reason. In 3.5, the Colossi have been toned down in the DR department.

[Eldariel]

CR is, in general, a horrible representation of the difficulty of an encounter. I'm sure it's fine if everything takes place on an infinite flat featureless plane, but things don't.

For example, A group of 4 1st level rangers with longbows, dosn't seem that tough (The SRD isn't working for me right now), but if those rangers ambush the PC's who are out in the open while they hide behind rocks a hundred and fifty feet away (If i remember correctly, thats within one range increment for a longbow), that is a very difficult encounter.

Oh, definitely. CR even notes you should adjust the CR according to the circumstances (hence my statement about Tucker's Kobolds - Kobolds have pitiful CRs, but Tucker's Kobolds generate circumstances that have infinite modifiers). Your example is CR 3-5 though, so that explains why it's tough.

Let's go a level further - four Elf Warriors with Longbows each around the PCs simultaneously open fire. They're in the 4 cardinal directions from the party behind a variety of obstacles, 100' away each. Now, unless the party has 4 melee types, they can't actually approach all the attackers at once, meaning that while one of them runs, the others bombard the character giving chase (one increment away still gives them reasonable chance to hit ACs around 16-18, which is what most level 1 characters probably have vs. level 1 Elf Warrior has +4 to ranged attacks with rational stat spread (max Dex, secondary Str, tertiary Con) and their standard feat).

Due to the obstacles, it's almost impossible for the PCs to effectively trade shots with the Elves, especially since as they're being attacked from 4 directions, it's going to be nigh' impossible to find comparative protection for the ranged combat. Also, since the terrain has obstacles, running to get to the elves is almost impossible meaning the PCs will have to be taking double moves, and can't probably Charge either. If the Elves are hellbent on it, they can destroy the whole party no problem. While it's possible for the party to perhaps spot them before the combat begins and thus avoid the disaster by only fighting against opponents in the three cardinal directions (provided that there's nothing blocking the LoS entirely - at least the one circling to their back should be noticable), there're still hefty range penalties on the Spot- and Listen-checks (a Druid could do it with luck - a party without a Druid is pretty effed). But yea, this is an example of circumstances increasing the CR notably.

[Fax Celestis]

TDC isn't a difficult opponent at all. A level 20 Charger Gish build with Superior Invisibility (SC), Quickened True Strike, and Persistent Wraithstrike should be able to take it out in a single hit. He'll use Moment of Prescience to win initiative, and it can't AoO due to invisibility. Its touch AC is only 48, he'll get +16 BAB (Shock Trooper), +20 True Strike, +5 Enhancement (GMW), +2 charging, plus his Str bonus. He can have an ally nearby with the Destiny domain (RoD) in case he rolls a 1.

Not PPDC or DPPDC, but the original TDC, as here or in Stormwrack.