[D&D] Where is the love?

[Rockphed]

Thinking about Paladins of various gods, and their various codes of conduct, I got to thinking what a Paladin of a Goddess or God of Fertility, Marriage, or Love would be required to do.

This lead to the question, "Who is the God or Goddess of Love in the Players Handbook?" Oddly, I could not find one. So, why isn't there one, and what would She or He look like if they existed?

Also, what would they require of their Paladins and Priests?

[JaxGaret]

Ehlonna is the goddess of fertility.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Sune is the CG goddess of love in FR, and also has a Paladin order(the one Chaotic deity that does).

[charl]

Fertility/Love dieties tend to not make for the same kind of gaming fun as a say God of Ultimate Warfare Against Evil of DOOM! Plus Isn't 4e supposed to be more more kid-friendly? It seems in the US that means that violence is okay, but sex isn't allowed to be even mentioned.

Oddly enough though, Durkon in OOTS worships Thor, who is actually an ancient Norse god of fertility and harvests (not a war god as commonly thought).

[Rockphed]

Ehlonna is the goddess of fertility.

She is? :Confused: I just checked my 3.5 PHB, and it just listed her as being over the Woodlands.

Fertility/Love dieties tend to not make for the same kind of gaming fun as a say God of Ultimate Warfare Against Evil of DOOM!

This makes me wish I knew more about mythology so I could point out the mythic heroes who had Aphrodite as a patroness, but my knowledge is amazingly sparse. On the other hand, wasn't Paris(who stole Helen of Troy) aided by Aphrodite?

[JaxGaret]

She is? :Confused: I just checked my 3.5 PHB, and it just listed her as being over the Woodlands.

Ehlonna.

Isn't her symbol in the PHB a Unicorn's Horn?

AFB, so can't confirm.

[1of3]

Thor is famous for his expeditions against the giants. (Utgard-Loki, Hrungnir...)

[theMycon]

This makes me wish I knew more about mythology so I could point out the mythic heroes who had Aphrodite as a patroness, but my knowledge is amazingly sparse.

Not exactly his Patron, but Aeneus (the founder of pre-Rome, and hero of Virgil's Aeneid) has Venus as a mother. And despite a rather shameful appearance in The Illiad, he's overall more distinguished than most other half gods.

[Lord Herman]

In 4th Edition, Sehanine is the goddess of love (among other things). 4E deities seem to have less adventurer-centric portfolios alltogether; they all have a reason to be worshipped by adventurers, but they also have 'civilian' sides.

Edit: She more embodies secret loves and such, though, not marriage or fertility.

[RebelRogue]

Oddly enough though, Durkon in OOTS worships Thor, who is actually an ancient Norse god of fertility and harvests (not a war god as commonly thought).

Thor is first and foremost a god of thunder! The nordic word for thunder ("torden") is derived from his name! The fertitlity deities in the pantheon are Frej and Freja, not Thor, although he is associated with weather and therefore indirectly harvest. He's not a war god either. That honour befalls Tyr (and to some degree Odin, but he gets all the good stuff ).

BTW: Yondalla is a god of family values which could be suited for a paladin of this bent (I've actually played one myself).

[charl]

Thor is first and foremost a god of thunder! The nordic word for thunder ("torden") is derived from his name! The fertitlity deities in the pantheon are Frej and Freja, not Thor, although he is associated with weather and therefore indirectly harvest. He's not a war god either. That honour befalls Tyr (and to some degree Odin, but he gets all the good stuff ).

Actually not true. I've studied ancient Norse religion on a university level, in Uppsala, Sweden. Though sources aren't very clear on the actual religious aspects and rituals of the ancient Norse people, most signs point to Thor being the main fertility god, or at least treated as such. Adam of Bremen, though not a very source, states this to be the case in his writings (though he also said that there was a huge temple made of solid gold in Old Uppsala, which I can tell you there isn't). Unfortunately his objectivity is to say the least questionable. Even more unfortunate he is about the only actual source available in these matters. The Eddas are more a collection of folktales and don't tell us anything about the actual religious practices behind them.
Archaeological findings however seem to point towards Thor being mainly a fertility god. His statues are often found around pits with offerings of fruit and cereals, and in most places he was given the central position at ceremonial sites, with his offering pits being larger, despite Odin being considered the actual head of the pantheon. This points to him being one of the most worshiped gods among the common populace, which would be the farmers (most Norse people weren't in the sailing, looting and killing business, contrary to popular belief).
You are however right in that he seems to have been the god of thunder, as well.

It should also be noted that the Nordic gods often overlap. Unlike the Greeks, the ancient Norse seems to have had several gods associated with several different aspects of nature at the same time. So while Thor seems to have been the most worshiped fertility-related god, Frej as well as Odin to a lesser degree also were fertility gods in their own way.

Thor is famous for his expeditions against the giants. (Utgard-Loki, Hrungnir...)

As noted above, the Eddas are folktales, written long after the actual religion they were based on was replaced by Christianity. The older one actually has a Christian message. It ends with "the illusions of the heretic gods disappearing" and the protagonist of the story seeing the "one true God" as the only one.
The stories, while being really good ones, really tell us very little about the actual religion of the Norse.

[RebelRogue]

Ok, I'm not a scholar on the subject, so I won't dispute. That's just what I remember from popular books and stuff (being danish I've seen quite a lot of those).

[AslanCross]

Sune is the CG goddess of love in FR, and also has a Paladin order(the one Chaotic deity that does).

The Paladins of Sune are protectors of beauty. They are the enemies of anything that wreaks havoc and destruction, since these disrupt the peace and harmony where beauty thrives.

[charl]

The Paladins of Sune are protectors of beauty. They are the enemies of anything that wreaks havoc and destruction, since these disrupt the peace and harmony where beauty thrives.

That seems very subjective. Destruction can be beautiful.

To quote Edgar Alan Poe:
"There is nothing more beautiful than the death of a young girl."

He did not mean that was a good thing, mind you. Just that he found it esthetically pleasing.

[Teron]

For the record, Eberron has Arawei, Sovereign of Life and Love, and her daughter the Fury, goddess of passion and madness. "Civilian" portfolios are actually the majority among the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six.

[Hal]

The default gods listed in the PHB are technically part of a setting. If you don't like it, you're always free to add to it or come up with your own.

That being said, I think deities of love and beauty tend to lend themselves less towards adventuring. Clerics of a goddess of love and fertility probably preside over marriage ceremonies more than anything else. I can't even guess what their paladins would be in charge of.

[charl]

The default gods listed in the PHB are technically part of a setting. If you don't like it, you're always free to add to it or come up with your own.

That being said, I think deities of love and beauty tend to lend themselves less towards adventuring. Clerics of a goddess of love and fertility probably preside over marriage ceremonies more than anything else. I can't even guess what their paladins would be in charge of.

Extreme make-overs and hair styling?

[BobVosh]

Extreme make-overs and hair styling?

So...Queer eye for the straight guy is Modern Paladins of fertility? Doesn't the god(dess) of fertility dislike the fact that they won't reproduce?

[Tsotha-lanti]

So...Queer eye for the straight guy is Modern Paladins of fertility? Doesn't the god(dess) of fertility dislike the fact that they won't reproduce?

Put the lid back on and back away from the can of worms, slowly.

[charl]

So...Queer eye for the straight guy is Modern Paladins of fertility? Doesn't the god(dess) of fertility dislike the fact that they won't reproduce?

Love and beauty != Fertility.

(That is, a diety of love and beauty is not necessarily a fertility deity. The post I was quoting was about a deity of love and beauty, or at least that was the part I was posting about, and I wasn't serious. And who says extreme make-over-ists and hair stylers have to be gay?)

This is however grossly out of topic. You want to keep discussing, PM me, otherwise I suggest this discussion ends here.

[Tokiko Mima]

On the other hand, wasn't Paris(who stole Helen of Troy) aided by Aphrodite?

Yeah, but Paris was kind of a wuss. The reason he gets a lucky shot off and kills Achilles is so Achilles would never be bested in a fight with a 'real' foe.

Aphrodite is also a bit weak, in that she doesn't stand up against the other gods much in the arena of battle. However, there are plenty of fertility and love gods that aren't have bad in a fight and I can think of one mother goddess (Kali) that is absolutely lethal.

[AstralFire]

Kali is a mother goddess, but she is certainly not a goddess of love. Lemme see... where's my old hinduism notes... Actually, I'll skip it, I don't want to border on invoking real-world religion.


Aphrodite herself was a horrible fighter, I think one of the better mortals in the Iliad manages to shoot her. Love in the modern sense didn't really exist to as a concept to the same extent way back when, so you're not going to find many gods devoted to it. Gods rarely principally champion a single direct virtue, I would argue, so much as a set of associated ones - there's no god of hope, but there is Pelor.

There is no emotion, only the Force. ...What? Long, long time ago.

[snoopy13a]

The default gods listed in the PHB are technically part of a setting. If you don't like it, you're always free to add to it or come up with your own.

That being said, I think deities of love and beauty tend to lend themselves less towards adventuring. Clerics of a goddess of love and fertility probably preside over marriage ceremonies more than anything else. I can't even guess what their paladins would be in charge of.

Paladins can always have duties such as:

1) Guarding temples

2) Escorting clerics and adepts

3) Carrying messages

4) Transporting money

Granted, this roles could also be done by other classes. For example, all of these could be accomplished by an order of fighters. Yet, there will always be mundane tasks that someone needs to do. Not all paladins are knights errant, some have pretty boring but necessary jobs.

[Siegel]

Also, what would they require of their Paladins and Priests?

The Priests (not Clerics) wander around, marie people, have "partys" in the temple, f*ck arround ( to spread joy), care for children

(it all depends on the focus)

Paladins guard the priests, hunt rapists, try to find physical perfection in fighting ( Sworddancing)

[FatJose]

*shrug* Marriage counseling?

Human Woman: "He just goes out at all times of the night! He says he's raiding but he never brings anything back from his pillaging!"

Orc Man: "Thruglor need time for self! Sometime Thruglor want relax with friends!"

Cleric of Love: "Hmm...do you ever think that maybe you should try relaxing maybe converse more ...with you wife?"

Human Woman: He's so cold!! *sobs*

Orc Man:Thruglor not cold! Thruglor insecure!

Cleric of Love: Hmm...*takes a few notes*

[Chronos]

There are several classical deity archetypes which aren't really all that well-supported in the core rules. Not only is there not a corresponding god, in many cases there isn't even an appropriate domain. As mentioned, there's no support for deities of love or beauty, like Aphrodite, but there's also no real support for a patron of craftsmen, like Hephæstos, or Athena (though admittedly Athena's portfolio is broad enough that she's not left out in the cold).

The splatbooks did improve this situation a bit, with the Creation and (I think) Charm domains. But maker-gods and lover-gods are common enough in mythology that they really ought to have been included in the core rules.

[Telonius]

The following gods have been listed as deities in some places or other in official D&D books. There is something to do with either love, marriage, family, fertility, or romance in their titles or portfolios.

Yondalla
Ehlonna
Aphrodite
Dionysius
Hera
Hestia
Hathor
Isis
Balder
Freya
Frey
Frigga
Myrhiss
Sune
Arawai
Ishtar
Hanali Celanil
Sheyanna Flaxenstrand
Sheela Peryrolyl
Ventila
Evening Glory
Iallanis
Lastai
Berei
Eldath
Lliira
Boldrei
Berronar Truesilver
Mya
Cyrollalee
Luthic
Tamara
Hiatea
Sharindlar
Shiallia
Sin
Aerdrie Faenya
Angharradh
Theleya
Sister Grain
Annam
Kikanuti
Semuanya
The Great Mother

[Talya]

Fertility/Love dieties tend to not make for the same kind of gaming fun as a say God of Ultimate Warfare Against Evil of DOOM!

Tell it to Nara.

So anyway, yes, in Faerun, Sune is the Goddess of Beauty, Love, and Passion. Lathander is the God of Fertility. Sharess is the Goddess of Hedonism. There's lots of fun to be had there...

Of the three, Sune and Lathander can have paladins. Lathander has lot more in his portfolio than fertility, so his paladins are pretty standard. Look up the Ruby Rose Knight substitution levels for the sunite paladins though (Champions of Valor). They're neat.

[Jolly Steve]

To quote Edgar Alan Poe:
"There is nothing more beautiful than the death of a young girl."

He did not mean that was a good thing, mind you. Just that he found it esthetically pleasing.

I think what he largely meant was

"hey 19th century goth chicks - I am deep."

[Callista]

Thinking about Paladins of various gods, and their various codes of conduct, I got to thinking what a Paladin of a Goddess or God of Fertility, Marriage, or Love would be required to do.

This lead to the question, "Who is the God or Goddess of Love in the Players Handbook?" Oddly, I could not find one. So, why isn't there one, and what would She or He look like if they existed?

Also, what would they require of their Paladins and Priests?

I'd guess they would be very involved in things like romance, marriage, family... duh... But those would be the Good-aligned ones (I'm assuming "god/dess of Love" would be Good... a god/dess of Pleasure would be some flavor of chaotic, and not necessarily Good; could actually be associated with brothels and such.)

I can definitely see them performing weddings, blessing married couples, and providing matchmaking services.

As to why they're not available, for the most part... Do you really have to ask? As everyone knows, even mentioning sex in any context is highly taboo, and you will probably get sued if you try it. Corrupting our children, and such. (From the same people who have no trouble with things like bodaks and mohrgs...)