Mind switching

[monty]

I was looking at the True Mind Switch power and started considering the huge abuse potential. What would the best candidate for this ability? My immediate thought is the Tarrasque, with great Str and Con and, of course, its Carapace and Regeneration, among other things - and with 9th level powers, you could easily make up for all of the regular Tarrasque's weaknesses. But I can't help thinking there's a better option. What are your suggestions?

[jcsw]

Sandwiches. All would succumb to your delicious wrath.

Epic Level Constructs are also a good choice, polymorph-any-object them into squirrels. Then switch with them. Then dismiss polymprph.

[monty]

Sandwiches. All would succumb to your delicious wrath.

As much as I love the concept of a psionic sandwich,

You can attempt to take control of a nearby living creature...

I'd play that if it were possible, though.

[ocato]

At L20 as a psion, you're about the same as a L20 wizard, so I'd say that while neat, you aren't going to be any significantly more of an affront to game balance/the gods than you were as a L20 full caster.

[Mewtarthio]

Bear in mind, you have to get your manifester level up to the HD of the creature you're targetting. It's not in the power description, but it's inhereted from mind switch (which, apparently, is a lie).

[monty]

At L20 as a psion, you're about the same as a L20 wizard, so I'd say that while neat, you aren't going to be any significantly more of an affront to game balance/the gods than you were as a L20 full caster.

Naturally. I'm just interested in how far over nine thousand you can get with this.

Edit:

Bear in mind, you have to get your manifester level up to the HD of the creature you're targetting. It's not in the power description, but it's inhereted from mind switch (which, apparently, is a lie).

I'm sure there's a way to get your ML to 48. I've seen some pretty ridiculous CL-maximizing builds that get into the 70's, so it should be doable.

[jcsw]

1. You're supposed to polymorph the sandvich into a living creature. Which becomes a legal target. Once you dismiss the polymorph, although it's no longer a valid target, the spell/power still functions. This works with a number of other things, but is generally not that abusable, comparing...

2. @Ocato, you keep your ability to use psionics. Making it a very bad tradeoff for your target who gets your flimsy body and no casting ability at all.

You retain your own hit points, saving throws (possibly modified by new ability scores), class abilities, supernatural and spell-like abilities, spells and powers, and skills and feats (although skill checks use your new ability scores, and you may be temporarily unable to use feats whose requirements you do not meet in your new body).

Trust me, I've been wanting to abuse this in a campaign for ages.

[ocato]

Yeah, that's also true. I'd say get the best dragon you can for 20 HD and just shapechange back into a person 99% of the time. What's worse than a super L20 caster? One who has a backup dragon form for when he's feeling saucy.

EDIT: And while a nice Take That, paying 10,000 experience to mess up a villain is probably not worth the trade, especially since if you kill him, you lose a level. That is just an inefficient way of victory. If you're using that spell, it's because you really want a new form, not because it seems like an easy victory method. Also, if he's a suitable threat to a L20 caster, he's probably also a caster and will still be able to cast at you upon entering your body.

[Vaynor]

Just get something with absolutely huge survivability, but not much else. Add that to a high level psion... it's unstoppable!

[jcsw]

I'm sure there's a way to get your ML to 48. I've seen some pretty ridiculous CL-maximizing builds that get into the 70's, so it should be doable.

I got it to NI.
1. Be an erudite.
2. Take spell-to-power variant http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a
3. Get some form of boosting your ML, such as an Ioun Stone which gives +1, the higher the bonus, the better, but +1 is the minimum
4. Convert Mental Pinnacle(See the psionic spells section in d20SRD) into a Power.
5. Manifest! The spell sees you have (Base ML+1) as your manifester level, and gives you a manifester level of that, manifest again, and it sees you have ((Base ML+1)+1)... Lather rinse repeat. You never run out of power points cause the spell keeps giving you more.
Eventually the effect would have a manifester level so high it lasts for days, and is impossible to dispel without disjunction. Making it more or less permanent.

[monty]

I got it to NI.
1. Be an erudite.
2. Take spell-to-power variant http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a
3. Get some form of boosting your ML, such as an Ioun Stone which gives +1, the higher the bonus, the better, but +1 is the minimum
4. Convert Mental Pinnacle(See the psionic spells section in d20SRD) into a Power.
5. Manifest! The spell sees you have (Base ML+1) as your manifester level, and gives you a manifester level of that, manifest again, and it sees you have ((Base ML+1)+1)... Lather rinse repeat. You never run out of power points cause the spell keeps giving you more.
Eventually the effect would have a manifester level so high it lasts for days, and is impossible to dispel without disjunction. Making it more or less permanent.

That's a nice loop. But I don't know that much about Erudites; can you still manifest True Mind Switch?

[ocato]

I'm confused, how do you convert it into a power? More importantly, what sane DM would let you? It specifically doesn't let you cast any spells while under the effect to avoid this (that is, if casting it over and over would even stack. I'm pretty sure it would just reset the timer).


Edit: Let's assume that being an Erudite (dunno about them) let's you. Even if you're a manifester L9000, you only know those spells.

[Mastikator]

Isn't Erudites basically wizards who use psionic powers rather than arcane magic spells?

[monty]

Edit: Let's assume that being an Erudite (dunno about them) let's you. Even if you're a manifester L9000, you only know those spells.

And any powers you normally have as an Erudite. Even though they used to be spells, they aren't anymore, so you can still use them. Including this one, which uses your caster level (now manifester level) for the spell. Not your base caster (manifester) level.

[ocato]

Which is great but... True Mind Switch isn't a spell ever, is it? I mean, that's a lovely trick for getting your CL up to epic levels but A. most CL dependent things cap at some point and B. it doesn't do anything for the current problem, which is true mind switching with a high HD creature because True Mind Switch doesn't exist as a spell (as far as I know).

[Eldariel]

That trick gets you infinite Manifester Level and you still retain your normal manifesting (that is, the ability to manifest True Mind Switch)...

[ocato]

I'm missing some information it seems. Erudites turn spells into powers, so you cast the spell to give you a manifestor level, then turn it into a power so you can keep casting it and double it up. I get that part (I think) but how do you already have manifestor levels? Are you supposed to be a Cerebremancer or something? I'm sure this makes sense but I think a part of it has been left out somewhere so that I'm not quite getting it. It's also possible that I'm sick and it's late and I'm not putting 2 and 2 together.

[Eldariel]

Erudites can turn Spells into Powers with an Alternative Class Feature of the same name. That merely adds the ability to use spells as powers to your inventory as opposed to replacing your ability to manifest powers with the ability to manifest spells.

[Cuddly]

Beholder.
Then go into Beholder Mage.

[Mewtarthio]

I'm missing some information it seems. Erudites turn spells into powers, so you cast the spell to give you a manifestor level, then turn it into a power so you can keep casting it and double it up. I get that part (I think) but how do you already have manifestor levels? Are you supposed to be a Cerebremancer or something? I'm sure this makes sense but I think a part of it has been left out somewhere so that I'm not quite getting it. It's also possible that I'm sick and it's late and I'm not putting 2 and 2 together.

The Erudite Spell-to-Power ability lets the Erudite learn arcane spells and turn them into powers. He never casts the spell in the first place: He turns the spell into a power, then learns the power as normal, then manifests the power and starts the infinite loop.

[jcsw]

I think the issue is you've not seen either the Erudite(Comp.Psi) or the Spell to Power description...

Erudites never have spells. They change things which were originally spells into powers, using that variant. They are considered powers, and are not affected by things that affect spells only (but not powers (note that most things that say "spell" can also mean "power" due to magic-psionics transparency))

They are a psionic class, which draws power off the psion lists.
The difference being that they know more powers, BUT they can cast a limited number of Unique powers a day.
They can also learn new powers by buying power stones, but using that variant, they can also learn powers by converting spells from magic scrolls.
(They can also learn new powers by directly probing a psionic character's mind, the power is then copied over, however most non-erudites won't let you do this without compensation.)

Erudites can potentially cast true mind switch, despite it being a discipline power. However they can't learn it by means of the powers you learn for free at each level, discipline powers can only be learnt from another psionic character's mind, meaning you've got to find a telepath who doesn't mind selling you the power.

[Jack_Simth]

Beholder.
Then go into Beholder Mage.

You don't keep all those nifty Su abilities of the Beholder, though. When you're targetting a creature, you want one that has really good (Ex) abilities - DR, Regeneration, Fast Healing, and so on. From the new body, you gain:

Type (and any subtypes; by implication, also the benefits of the type), Str, Dex, Con (but not bonus hp), Natural Attacks, Natural Armor, Movement Modes, Physical Characteristics, Ex special attacks, Possessions and Equipment

You retain your own hit points, saving throws (possibly modified by new ability scores), class abilities, supernatural and spell-like abilities, spells and powers, and skills and feats (although skill checks use your new ability scores, and you may be temporarily unable to use feats whose requirements you do not meet in your new body).

As a Psion(Telepath) 17+, beyond and ability to communicate normally and to be treated as a person, you're not particularly worried about your physical form, as it pretty much only affects your available item slots - so you're looking for nifties. I'm fond of the Imp, personally - DR (maybe), Fast Healing, Flight (50 perfect), +3 Dex mod, +5 Natural Armor, and Tiny for the defensive bonuses that brings.

Of course, what's really funny is using True Mind Switch on a Hellwasp Swarm, except that you end up with some serious problems if you end up taking a lot of damage (you're rendered Mindless before you die).

[Adumbration]

Will-O'-Wisp wouldn't be a bad choice, though I'm sure there are better.

[Cuddly]

You don't keep all those nifty Su abilities of the Beholder, though. When you're targetting a creature, you want one that has really good (Ex) abilities - DR, Regeneration, Fast Healing, and so on. From the new body, you gain:

Type (and any subtypes; by implication, also the benefits of the type), Str, Dex, Con (but not bonus hp), Natural Attacks, Natural Armor, Movement Modes, Physical Characteristics, Ex special attacks, Possessions and Equipment

That's all I'm interested in; the bolded bit. Beholder Mage replaces all those Su abilities for the ability to cast 10 spells as a free action each round. Spontaneously as a sorc, but learned like a wizard.

[Jack_Simth]

That's all I'm interested in; the bolded bit. Beholder Mage replaces all those Su abilities for the ability to cast 10 spells as a free action each round. Spontaneously as a sorc, but learned like a wizard.

There's a couple of problems with that....

1) It's a ten-level PrC, and to pull this trick at all, you pretty much need to be at 17th level already (as a Psion-Telepath). You're going into Epic levels to do that (well, unless you find a way to crash the beholder's saves, then use the power off of a powerstone...).
2) They aren't exactly free actions to get off all ten. You're not really doing much of anything else while you're casting those ten spells - all of different levels.
3) It's very, very easy for the DM to nix this plan with text from the Mind Switch power and with the text from the Beholder Mage Class. See, you have to sacrifice the use of an eye stalk to gain access to the spells... but you don't have the use of the eye stalk to sacrifice (they're Su abilities, which you don't get).

[Aquillion]

Yeah, that's also true. I'd say get the best dragon you can for 20 HD and just shapechange back into a person 99% of the time. What's worse than a super L20 caster? One who has a backup dragon form for when he's feeling saucy.

Plus, if you enter an AMF or get Disjunctioned or dispelled or whatever, you have a particularly nasty surprise up your sleeve: You will turn into a dragon under those circumstances!

[jcsw]

Just like normal gold/silver dragons who do that, I presume?

[Aquillion]

Just like normal gold/silver dragons who do that, I presume?

Actually... I forgot, we're using Alternate Form, which is technically not a spell or spell-like ability (it doesn't even have a CL assigned to it.) That means they won't turn back if hit by a Dispel Magic or a Disjunction.

But Alternate Form is an Su ability, so they will wink back to dragon-shape in an AMF. (And then may immediately wink back into a human, if they're too large to fit entirely inside it... in fact, wouldn't just the parts outside the AMF wink back? Jeez.)

[Recaiden]

I belive that an IKEA tarrasque hellwasp swarm is among the most ridiculous forms you can get. And if you happened to have the half doppelgenger template, you keep your 3 alternate forms. Being a sandwich is much more fun though, as long as you choose the right kind.

[Jack_Simth]

I belive that an IKEA tarrasque hellwasp swarm is among the most ridiculous forms you can get. And if you happened to have the half doppelgenger template, you keep your 3 alternate forms. Being a sandwich is much more fun though, as long as you choose the right kind.

If Magic/Psionics transparency is in play, the IKEA Tarrasque Hellwasp Swarm is immune on two different counts.

Firstly, the IKEA Tarrasque has the construct type - which means it's immune to mind-affecting effects.

Second, True Mind Switch is not on the list of things that bypasses the IKEA Tarrasque's magic immunity - and True Mind Switch permits SR.

There might be a way to pull it off (area-effect Polymorph spell that's been converted into a Supernatural ability) but that seems really tricky.