[3.5] Voidmind Barbarian (or, what can a rager do?)

[askandarion]

Hello folks!

I'm a longtime lurker that has finally joined up, because I'm having trouble resolving a detail with voidmind barbarians.

In the game I'm DMing, these guys are the next threat my group needs to deal with. For those who don't know, Voidmind is a template from Monster Manual 3 that involves mind flayer experimentation. The important part here is that voidminds get a supernatural ability to spray out a cone of acid once a day (it's more of a psionic flavor, I think, but oh well). The problem: barbarians in a rage cannot cast spells or use spell trigger or completion items, but I haven't been able to find anything saying whether or not they can actually use supernatural abilities while raging.

Does anyone know if that's resolved somewhere and I missed it somehow, or if there's a ruling? Or is there even a general agreement on the web on whether or not it's allowed?

Much appreciated!

[Ryuuk]

The cone of acid would probably fall along the lines of a breath weapon, I don´t see why you couldn´t use it while raging.

If it helps, it makes sence flavor wise. The cone of acid comes from a voidmind´s sentient tentacle. It follows the "hosts" orders, but it has a mind of its own (which is why it doesn´t take the -5 to attacks or the .5 Str mod for a full attack that use it as a secondary weapon).

[Starbuck_II]

Hello folks!

I'm a longtime lurker that has finally joined up, because I'm having trouble resolving a detail with voidmind barbarians.

In the game I'm DMing, these guys are the next threat my group needs to deal with. For those who don't know, Voidmind is a template from Monster Manual 3 that involves mind flayer experimentation. The important part here is that voidminds get a supernatural ability to spray out a cone of acid once a day (it's more of a psionic flavor, I think, but oh well). The problem: barbarians in a rage cannot cast spells or use spell trigger or completion items, but I haven't been able to find anything saying whether or not they can actually use supernatural abilities while raging.

Does anyone know if that's resolved somewhere and I missed it somehow, or if there's a ruling? Or is there even a general agreement on the web on whether or not it's allowed?

Much appreciated!

If it isn't a spell or spell trigger/completion then they can use.

By the rules, a Barbarian could use Psionics in a rage because it isn't a spell (whether you treat them as same or different).
In fact, in Hyperconsious (a splatbook by Bruce, the guy who wrote the XPH) there is a Raging Prc for Psionics.

[namo]

You can use supernatural abilities while raging. Intuitively, they come "naturally" (they don't provoke AoOs, they never need Concentration) so the raging doesn't interfere with them.

@Starbuck_II: that's just because the rules rarely account for psionics. A raging creature using psionics doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

[Person_Man]

There's also a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds called Righteous Wrath that lets you maintain your mental abilities during a Rage.

But as people have said, Rage only precludes certain things. A breath weapon of some type wouldn't be excluded.

[jcsw]

Now you just need to make it a goliath voidmind barbarian, with the racial subsitution levels, for the size increase, giving you 15ft reach!

[Teron]

@Starbuck_II: that's just because the rules rarely account for psionics. A raging creature using psionics doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

It makes sense for a wilder, at least.

[wadledo]

It makes sense for a wilder, at least.

That is the definition of a Maenad Wilder.

[askandarion]

Thank you for your input, folks. It's what I felt as well, but I let my player win the argument temporarily as the cone would have left half the party stunned for 3 rounds, and another would have dropped from one more hit. Adding the fact that these barbarians had rage feats that boosted their Strength by... 8, Con by.. 6, while reducing their ACs to 12, and it could have been a TPK. So these two were caught up in the battle too much to use the cone attack.

Were 2 of these guys too much for a level 5 party?

Do any of the books actually SAY a raging barbarian can use supernatural abilities? Or the sage or whatever the wizards website had?

[sleepy]

Doesn't the barbarian's rage description mention something about tasks involving extreme concentration being impossible during a rage? Wouldn't this imply it's a reasonable ruling at very least that going into a rage causes a barbarian to lose psionic focus?

edit: cannot use "...charisma-, dexterity-, or intelligence-based skills, the concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration...".

[Starbuck_II]

Doesn't the barbarian's rage description mention something about tasks involving extreme concentration being impossible during a rage? Wouldn't this imply it's a reasonable ruling at very least that going into a rage causes a barbarian to lose psionic focus?

edit: cannot use "...charisma-, dexterity-, or intelligence-based skills, the concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration...".

No, it just precludes them from gaining while in rage: nothing about maintaining it.

[Chronos]

Psionic powers (and spells, spell-like abilities, and psi-like abilities) require concentration to use, so they definitely can't be used while raging. Supernatural abilities, though, typically don't require concentration, so they're fine.

[ocato]

Honestly, I don't see a big fuss if they can't use it while raging. Fight starts, blast them with acid cones, then rage, the profit.

Or, save a few for long fights where rage might end. You're all tuckered out and your enemies think they have you cornered? Acid Cone!

[quillbreaker]

Were 2 of these guys too much for a level 5 party?

Templates are really weird from a CR/difficulty perspective. Depending on how the synergies fall out, a template can help a creature not what-so-ever or make it substantially more dangerous than the template-adjusted CR would imply.

[JaxGaret]

It's what I felt as well, but I let my player win the argument temporarily

AFAICT, there is no argument. Raging creatures can use (Su) abilities.

Were 2 of these guys too much for a level 5 party?

What exactly was their build? How many levels of Barbarian, what race, etc.

Do any of the books actually SAY a raging barbarian can use supernatural abilities? Or the sage or whatever the wizards website had?

It doesn't say they can't, so they can. The books don't need to spell out every single last little thing a Barbarian can do, since there's a specific list of what they can't do: "While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function". If it's not on that list, they can use it. (Su) abilities are not on the list, so they're usable.

The only question really is whether or not firing the acid cone requires "patience or concentration", which it really doesn't seem to.

[askandarion]

AFAICT, there is no argument. Raging creatures can use (Su) abilities.

What exactly was their build? How many levels of Barbarian, what race, etc.

2 humans, Barbarian 2, with the elite array for stats. Their feats were both rage-related, boosting the stat increases in exchange for lowering their AC. Basic greataxes and breastplate, no other equipment whatsoever (except for their loincloths, which for some reason the Drow wizard wanted to keep- I didn't ask). I wanted some glass cannons that the group could encounter as a legitimate threat, then figure out they can easily destroy them if they attack at range. This would have been a TPK, it seems.

The group absolutely destroyed a bunch of level 2s with a level 4 fighter boss when they were level 4. With my PCs being 1 level higher now, I figured 2 of these level 2 barbarians with the template would make a more appropriate challenge. Especially since the acid cone's DC is Con-based, and hey! look at that, Con goes up when raging.

Again, while this template's flavor crystals are psionic (made by mindflayers, psionic goop, yadda yadda yadda), the crunch is still (Su) all day, every day.

Thank you for the input, everyone!