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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Does V Have a Point?

    I've been mulling it over in my head, and to a degree, I can see where V is coming from. Elan and Durkon have got wrapped up in Azurite affairs, and their contributions, however beneficial to Azurite society and the long term of its civilization, mean nothing if Team Evil capture a gate. I understand why they've gotten mixed up in this: Elan is trying to live up to Roy, who was hired as Hinjo's bodyguard; while Durkon can't help but help those in need. He's helpful to a flaw. V, at best, sees this as treating the symptoms, leaving the infection free to fester.

    Of course, V's treatment seems to assume it's based on the four humors, and bleeding the problem enough will fix it. Any chance V had of being in the right in my eyes went out the window when (s)he claimed it was h** "magical instinct" that would find Haley. If (s)he weren't so singleminded, (s)he might have been able to convince the others it was time to leave the fleet and actively search for Haley.

    I know OOTS doesn't have players, but if it did, I'm convinced that Cloister was a way of railroading the players into not going back for the others, because the DM has some master plan about how they'll be reunited. V's player refuses to accept this for some reason.
    "They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    V has always, and may stop to do so at the end of this caracter developpement she's going through, assumed that her arcane power is superior in every aspects to any other methods of solving problems. Giving that they are in a D&D based universe and that the wizard in a party often becomes that most ressourful and efficient member of the party in almost every way, she could be right.

    Hovewer I find far more logical, in a story telling perspective, that V is falling off the roof of a very tall building. Qarr will probably be the instrument that will ensure the completion of this fall. This is often used by authors to evolve singleminded overpowered characters. V is turning into a horrible asocial mostly useless shell of her former self to eventually realise that she's on the wrong track, probably in a climatic moment (battle for the fourth gate maybe...) and then learn that to save the world, she must first consider those who fills it as equals to herself and worthy of her time and respect. If she is to ever return to the party and be readdmited fully, she has to amend her faults in some way and let go of her "I'm an poweful elf wizard so obviously in better than you and you should listen to me or get out of my way" attitude.
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Sorry I agree that V is in the right, if in a rather pompous way tho. Really, equality is great and all, but Vs best way of saving the world right now is to do what he's doing, regardless of what people say is right.

    Elan cannot help V, so he's doing what's right for himself, which is staying with the azurites.

    In any case, Haley's gonna be pissed :D

    oh and if durkon gets hurt, is Elan supposed to look after himself?!
    well he does have banjo
    Not Helping!!!

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    I think you're assuming that V is really interested in saving the world. If he was, he'd be trying his darnedest to get to the next gate, NOT spend all his time trying to locate Haley and Roy.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Don't get me wrong, I know full well V's true motivation is to overcome an obstacle with magic, rather than save the world. I've been saying that since 504. However, what (s)he said makes sense at some level: Protecting Hinjo will not remove the threat to the gates.
    "They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
    - The Flying Kipper

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think you're assuming that V is really interested in saving the world. If he was, he'd be trying his darnedest to get to the next gate, NOT spend all his time trying to locate Haley and Roy.
    One and the same according to Vaarsuvius.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    True, but you're forgetting one minor detail. In 599, when Elan tells Hinjo that Kubota drowned, he said "Now can we please get back to-" I believe he was either going to say "Finding Haley" or "Finding the gates" or "Taking Back Azure City." And really, having the Azure City Army helping you with any of those tasks would be more beneficial than all of V's arcane power.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    I'm somewhat confused as to why anyone can't see the basic logic that motivates V's belief he is right. While surely V himself has turned this into an obsession I am hard pressed to not agree with the core argument. Haley, Roy, and Belkar were left behind in a very bad situation and very little has been done to rescue/recover them besides V's scrying. Putting everything with the world ending plot out of consideration for a moment, Elan and Durkon chose the needs of the many over their friends. For months now they have been trying to help with the problems that currently confront the people of Azure City. The problem is those things continue to drive them further away from finding their friends/loved ones/traveling companions. The Azurites are concerned with the Azurites situation, as well they should be, and not with the Order of the Stick. So why do Durkon and Elan feel that the Azurites problems should be greater then their own, they are trying to save the world. Taking back Azure City (not just stopping team evil) or finding these people a new home could well take years, years the OotS don't have. Put yourself in V's shoes (slippers?), if you can't convince your allies they are making the wrong choices eventually you have no other choice but to go your separate ways.

    The problem, as I see it, is that the three don't have a clear leader V, Elan, and Durkon NEED Roy or Haley to properly coordinate them. Without either of them the three lack the skills to be a team. V doesn't have the people skills to get the others to commit to what their goals should be. While Elan and Durkon lack the strength of will to stand as equals with Hinjo and not place him in a leadership role for them. With V's departure the guys now have a choice to either fully join the Azurites or recommit themselves to finding Haley and Co. as they no longer have V as an excuse to not be looking for them.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    That's exactly what I'm saying: V's right in that they should either head to Girard's Gate, or find Haley and Roy. I think the main issue everyone inside and out of the comic has is the way (s)he said it, and h** true motivation for doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonseedx
    So why do Durkon and Elan feel that the Azurites problems should be greater then their own, they are trying to save the world.
    Because they're good aligned, and feel compelled to help people who need it. Like you said, they don't have anyone capable of leading them effectively, to remind them that redecorating a room while the house on fire is not good priority-setting. If Roy was on the boat, he'd have gotten them moving months ago. Which has been, I think, the point of at least the last 50 or so strips: the Order cannot thrive without Roy.
    "They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
    - The Flying Kipper

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    V is absolutely right. These multiple separated storylines must end! Get everyone back together again, Rick!
    Last edited by Talya; 2008-10-09 at 09:54 AM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Who's Rick? Maybe I should ask Rich Burlew, Author of the Award-Winning Webcomic Order of the Stick.
    "They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
    - The Flying Kipper

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Who's Rick? Maybe I should ask Rich Burlew, Author of the Award-Winning Webcomic Order of the Stick.
    Rick is a short form for Richard! (So is ****, actually, but I wasn't trying to be disrespectful.) ;)
    Last edited by Talya; 2008-10-09 at 10:00 AM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    Rick is a short form for Richard! (So is ****, actually, but I wasn't trying to be disrespectful.) ;)
    I know, I was just joking. I think he answers to "Rich", keep in mind.
    "They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
    - The Flying Kipper

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    I shoulda said Ricky!
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghastly Epigram View Post
    Based on that conversation, it seems that Durkon and Elan only stuck around because V refused to try anything else.
    Last edited by Shatteredtower; 2008-10-10 at 06:45 AM. Reason: Forgot to mention who refused to try anything else. Fixed now.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    I assume you meant V refused to try something else, which is true. It also kinda renders V a hypocrite. (S)he's trying to make it look like (s)he's off finding Girard's Gate, while (s)he's really off to untie h** Gordian Knot, and doesn't want to be distracted.

    Who knows? Maybe Elan and Durkon will decide to move on now, now they don't have to worry about V.
    "They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
    - The Flying Kipper

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya View Post
    V is absolutely right. These multiple separated storylines must end! Get everyone back together again, Rick!
    Except that whereas they were pretty much forced by circumstances to separate before, now V is deliberately further dividing the team. And is obviously not particularly inclined to regroup with Elan and Durkon after finding Haley and getting Roy resurrected.

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    Laurentio II's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    Except that whereas they were pretty much forced by circumstances to separate before, now V is deliberately further dividing the team. And is obviously not particularly inclined to regroup with Elan and Durkon after finding Haley and getting Roy resurrected.
    It's to be noted that Haley has the power to put sense in every of his actual or former teammates.

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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurentio II View Post
    It's to be noted that Haley has the power to put sense in every of his actual or former teammates.
    Due to gender confusion, I'm not sure if you mean Haley or Roy. Thinking Haley since she has more "SMACK YOU BACK TO REALITY" moments, though she also has more inner issues.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    If V gets Roy resurrected, it won't matter what V thinks of rejoining Durkon and Elan; Roy will do so whether Vaarsuvius likes it or not.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Laurentio II's Avatar

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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    Due to gender confusion, I'm not sure if you mean Haley or Roy. Thinking Haley since she has more "SMACK YOU BACK TO REALITY" moments, though she also has more inner issues.
    Haley. And Vaarsuvius is somehow more vulnerable to Haley personality than to Roy eloquence.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    V might have a point buried under there somewhat, but I think its overwhelmed by his selfishness and his lack of regard for life. He doesn't even consider what would have happened if Kabuta wasn't that bad a person? He considers Thelkra nothing? He'll screw everyone, even his team mates, just to continue obsessively with his research?
    This is the start of V's road to darkness and destruction, trust me
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks is doing the right thing.

    Y'see, sometimes, hard decisions need to be made. And V was very correct in weighing the needs of the several thousand over the entire world. Elan and dwarf-guy are too heavily involved, because since they're goody-two-shoes, they think they have to help those who they think need help.

    V will help those that actually need help- Haley and Roy, because they know where the gate is, and thus helping the world.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Drayakir View Post
    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks is doing the right thing.

    Y'see, sometimes, hard decisions need to be made. And V was very correct in weighing the needs of the several thousand over the entire world. Elan and dwarf-guy are too heavily involved, because since they're goody-two-shoes, they think they have to help those who they think need help.

    V will help those that actually need help- Haley and Roy, because they know where the gate is, and thus helping the world.
    Because a unified Azure City and allies army to handle the huge goblin horde for our heroes will not actually be largely useful to those goals, am I right? And V's done such a good job helping them so far, and his work will somehow progress more quickly without Elan and Durkon there even though what we're waiting for is the Cloister to end.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    V does have a point whether he falls to the darkside or not V's right at this moment.
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    Because a unified Azure City and allies army to handle the huge goblin horde for our heroes will not actually be largely useful to those goals, am I right? And V's done such a good job helping them so far, and his work will somehow progress more quickly without Elan and Durkon there even though what we're waiting for is the Cloister to end.

    If I recall, rebuilding a city takes a lot of time, and the allies of the Azurites didn't want to help them by forming a military alliance. Besides, the Gates are magical in nature, so armies wouldn't really do anything for them.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    V needs to sleep for a few days and start acting like a person. (How does she memorize spells without 8 hours of some form of rest/trance anyway?)

    She may be logically correct. But you don't just abandon your friends. You don't treat them so callously, or threaten their lives when they disagree with your choices. She needs to grow up and be an adult. Assuming she has a player, the player would be kicked out of the group for having her character act like this.

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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    Because a unified Azure City and allies army to handle the huge goblin horde for our heroes will not actually be largely useful to those goals, am I right? And V's done such a good job helping them so far, and his work will somehow progress more quickly without Elan and Durkon there even though what we're waiting for is the Cloister to end.
    I find the way you emphasize Vaarsuvius' faults, ignore his achievement and generically blame him for things that you know just by off-character knowledge a noticeable impediment to the construction of an informed debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    V needs to sleep for a few days and start acting like a person. (How does she memorize spells without 8 hours of some form of rest/trance anyway?)
    By rules, trance or sleep is not required. The wizard in only required to take a break from activities, that could be achieved even by looking at drying paint on a wall. Or thinking obsessively to your missing teammates.
    Many races use this time to sleeps, and elves to meditate, only for the sake of practicality.
    Last edited by Laurentio II; 2008-10-09 at 12:58 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurentio II View Post
    I find the way you emphasize Vaarsuvius' faults, ignore his achievement and generically blame him for things that you know just by off-character knowledge a noticeable impediment to the construction of an informed debate.
    I'm not blaming him for the Cloister, just for not getting the hint that he can lay off the method for a while. You do not need OoC knowledge to realize that if you are depriving yourself of biological functions for an extended period of time to get a slight edge on something that has proven to be wholly futile, you should probably reconsider how you are approaching the problem. All you need there is hindsight and reflection, and V's had plenty of opportunity to do both - about as much as we have had, considering the time jump.

    If I was trying to make a character sketch, I'd be more fair to V, yes - he is an intelligent character, fairly witty and enjoyable, and his faults of late have made him into a more interesting character, which is much more than can be said for Durkon.

    I am not trying to make a whole character sketch of him, however - he's not a real person with feelings to consider and all that. I pick on his faults in relation to people who think he's doing the right thing. My Computer Science teacher taught me a lot about the value of approaching problems from different angles, and he had the incompetence poster (the one I linked in the other thread) hung up on his wall. And yes, when I threw myself against the problem in the same way repeatedly for an extended period of time, then I was being incompetent. I have done that.

    If people were praising Durkon constantly, I'd be talking about his issues (and Durkon also has an issue with not being terribly interesting oftentimes, unfortunately.) Likewise, I think Roy was being a miserable fool taking on Xykon as he did, as I alluded to in another thread. Roy is my favorite character and I have volumes to say about how he treated Elan and messed up earlier on, though it's not relevant right now.

    This does not make them bad people, unsympathetic... It simply makes them not perfect, not badasses, not magnificent bastards, not whatever cool term the community is tossing around this week.

    (Oh, and to pre-empt any "you're a very harsh person" - I'm someone interested in improvement, and I have no interest in being barnside blunt, or blunt at all, to real people who DO have feelings. V and Roy do not.)
    Last edited by AstralFire; 2008-10-09 at 01:13 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Does V Have a Point?

    V is wrong. The characters, at the moment, are on a story-mandated subplot to help ensure that, after the world is saved, there are parts of the world coming back to. Given that the villains of the piece tend to act on the speed of plot, it would be better to tie off what loose ends are possible so as not to be distracted by them when returning to the main plot.

    Just as an example, imagine what could have happened if Therkla had shown up while Haley was around, and started an argument in the middle of the climactic fight.

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