Rogue and Beguiler in the same group

[Bassikpoet]

I will probably have a beguiler and rogue in my next campaign. The rogue is an established character while the beguiler is being introduced. How can I introduce the beguiler to the group without stepping on the toes of the rogue? The player simply wants to be a charismatic illusionist with rogue-like tendancies. Is there something I could add to replace the trapfinding ability of the beguiler so that the rogue remains the trapspringer? Both have relatively high intelligence, but is it possible for them to have completely different skill sets while still being effective?

[BobVosh]

Yes, don't change the classes. Both is possible and fine together.

[Riffington]

First off, how social is the rogue? The biggest "step on toes" that the beguiler would/could do is if your rogue loves being the party bluffer - that's gonna get taken away from him. But if your rogue is a trapfinder and warrior, their skill sets will be very different.

Trapfinding? Honestly, I'd just ask him not to step on the rogue's toes there if the rogue is good at it. And why would he want to? It's a pretty dangerous job, after all.

But if you wanna give him something good for it, give him a familiar. Or the ability to prepare spells. Or a feat like Deceitful.

[sonofzeal]

Have them focus differently. A Beguiler CAN find high traps, but he might spend skillpoints on things besides Search. In addition, you could encourage them to work together, with the Beguiler creating Sneak Attack opportunities for the Rogue.

[Fax Celestis]

SonOfZeal's got it down. Beguiler should make good use of spells like legion of sentinels to set up flanking opportunities for the rogue.

And if and when your Beguiler uses that spell, watch what happens when your fighter-type bullrushes an opponent through the spell. And remember that the spell is spherical.

[Mystery Meep]

I've never seen the Beguiler work well with rogues or illusionists; I'd recommend that the Beguiler play something else.

[Jeramiahh]

Actually, my current party has a rogue, beguiler, and wizard, and we LOVE the beguiler. Hello, Haste and Greater Invisibility as spontaneous spells. Charm Person/Monster, Slow, every illusion known to man; the beguiler's more of a utility man, than anything else. The rogue specializes in combat, with a side order of trapfinding and lockpicking; the beguiler specializes in screwing with the battlefield better than even I, the wizard, can manage, social encounters, and in making everyone else fight at top tier. Solid Fog stops the dragon.. or nearly anything, Greater Invis+Haste turns the rogue into a living blender, Halt or Stay the Hand are superb spells when you get higher, because they use less-used lower level slots, and are Immediates, not standards. Some of the area based enchantments can slow, stop, or completely disable entire groups of enemies, and he only gets better with age.

So, in short, don't make the beguiler step on the rogue's toes, and they'll get along fine. They're like bards with amazing spells instead of music.

[JaxGaret]

How can I introduce the beguiler to the group without stepping on the toes of the rogue?

Well, how exactly do you plan on introducing the Beguiler to the group?

The player simply wants to be a charismatic illusionist with rogue-like tendancies. Is there something I could add to replace the trapfinding ability of the beguiler so that the rogue remains the trapspringer?

Yes, you can use any ACF (Alternate Class Feature) that replaces Trapfinding.

You can find Trapfinding replacement ACFs in Complete Champion, Drow of the Underdark, and Exemplars of Evil. The one in EoE might be of particular interest to your Beguiler.

Both have relatively high intelligence, but is it possible for them to have completely different skill sets while still being effective?

Of course. It is quite easy to split up the Face and Trap skills into two large sets.

[Chineselegolas]

Stepping on the toes isn't always a bad thing depending how the players play it.
If the rogue does it most the time with the beguiler lending a hand with some other tasks like Master/Student gives another channel for the players to play along. Can also Master/Student with party arcanist, so then the masters can compete with which aspects the student is better at.

If there is a locked and trapped door, have one do one part the other do the other. Halves the time getting through (Well maybe 3/4 considering people tend to get in each others way), which while normally tends to be quite around doors (Until they open...) throw something chasing them so team work and tackling multiple at once is needed.

Also as others say, one can face skill monkey, the other can do the trap finding and survival skills

[Telonius]

I don't know what Rogue would turn down a +2 "Aid Another" when searching for/disabling a trap. As long as the players are clear beforehand what the team roles are going to be, it should be fine.

[valadil]

Putting them in situations where they have to work together should help. You can do traps or locks that must be disabled simultaneously. Even more fun, you can have them work together as con men. That sort of thing always works better with a partner.

[Epinephrine]

We have two rogue-types in a campaign, and it seems fine - we just focus on different aspects of it; I handle traps/locks/disarming, he's more of the combat/tumble/jump/climb/sneak style. As long as they have their niches they should get along fine.

[Person_Man]

They play very differently. Rogues tend to focus on flanking in melee or bow attacks. Beguilers cast spells almost every round. And in many cases, those spells (especially Greater Invisibility) greatly help the Rogue.

Although its annoying to have a Skill overlap, it happens in almost every D&D game. IMO opinion, it can also be helpful. It's nice to have more then one PC participate in diplomacy or bluff through negotiations. It's useful to have as many people as possible with stealth options. Other then Disable Device, Forgery, Use Rope, and maybe a few other circumstances, there are really very few times when you only need 1 player with a certain Skill set.

[monty]

Other then Disable Device, Forgery, Use Rope, and maybe a few other circumstances, there are really very few times when you only need 1 player with a certain Skill set.

And many of those still benefit from Aid Another, so it's never completely useless.

[Leon]

I've never seen the Beguiler work well with rogues or illusionists; I'd recommend that the Beguiler play something else.

Don't.
Let the player play what they want - forcing Players to play a certain role generally doesn't go down well.

[Paul H]

Hi

Played in a group that had a Scout/Ranger if I recall, then joined it as 5th lvl Changeling Beguiler. Problem wasn't so much that I was better at searching & disabling traps - it was that I kept the Changeling part secret.
(Roleplaying - I'd been picked on as a kid, so now appeared as a Half-Elf. Learned Elven as a language, amongst others).

Yep - Legion of Sentinels is awesome for setting up those flanks. Threatens spellcasters too.....

Currently got 3 Beguilers on the go.

Grey Elf Beguiler 1 in online game (Night Below)
Dakon Wiz1/Beguiler9 as cohort to Dwarf Clr3/Warmage4/Mystic T 5 (Living Greyhawk/Living Planar)
Changeling Beguiler6/Warlock1 (Eberron home campaign).

Last two got Unsettling Enchantment as well.

Cheers
Paul H

[Roderick_BR]

Yup, a rogue/beguiler duo can actually be very powerful if they work together.
I actually see the beguiler more like a replacement to the bard than the rogue: illusion spells, party face, and trap finding, that many already like to give the bard, to complement the rogue, or simply step him when the rogue can't do his stuff. It's like saying that a fighter and a barbarian can both hit things with a weapon, they just do things differently.